• Welcome to H4O! For a reduced ad experience, please login or register with the forum.

ok, so remind me of why we can't run disconnects on the front, on the H3?

elripster

Well-Known Member
Messages
111
Location
San Diego
I just disconnect one side of each bar. I only do this on trails. On sand dunes or just bombing down 2 tracks/fire roads I don't bother. This only helps the 4-lo locked up crawling situations. It high speeds stability bars (their technical name) are a very good thing.

I must say, IFS Hummers flex extremely well compared to any other stock truck I have observed. GM really set these up to give all the flex they can.



Frank
 
Last edited:

06 H3

a.k.a. "The Jackal"
Messages
9,505
Location
Meridian, ID
I think it would be cool if we could get some travel #s with the sway bars connected and without. You guys have any guesstimates?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
 

Hunner

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,334
Location
Arkansas
I remembered there are some ramps over at Superlift. Maybe I can go by there on the way to the lake and find out the official way to check my numbers. I would like to know just for grins if anything I did increased it. It all boils down to if you can go where you want to go and if not WINCH! lol
 

06 H3

a.k.a. "The Jackal"
Messages
9,505
Location
Meridian, ID
at the end of the day I dont think flex has limited me on where I want to go. I have gotten through 98% of the stuff I wanted to get through under my own power, excluding the damn sluice box of course...I think size is more of a hindrance then flex, I have gone through some tight spots with the jeepers.
 

bebe

Moderator
Messages
1,375
Location
Dayton, NV
On a stock rig - you have a bump for both up and down travel - built in. Disconnecting the sway bar in the front on a stock rig is safe. Disconnecting the sway bar in the front will not net you more 1/2" of additional travel. It can't. BUT - body roll is greatly improved in slow, crawling situations, speed is a different story altogether - that, without a swaybar connected is deadly.

In the rear however, you will get 2-3" more travel, and because of the corner weight of the H3 in the front, you will benefit performance wise having the rear disconnected 10x more than the front.

Extended travel nets more traction nets better crawling/performance. In high speed/street situations it can be very dangerous and is not recommended.
 

06 H3

a.k.a. "The Jackal"
Messages
9,505
Location
Meridian, ID
do you feel disconnecting the front for the small travel gain is worth the added body roll? When you say stock, does my setup still fit under that category...it still is running stock a arms and front end components.
 

Scarsman

Sponsor
Messages
1,561
Location
Monroe, WA
do you feel disconnecting the front for the small travel gain is worth the added body roll? When you say stock, does my setup still fit under that category...it still is running stock a arms and front end components.

I don't think you would ever see any measurable performance difference from 1/2" difference in travel. Disconnecting the front is not going give you more body roll. You will see less, because if, for instance, the right front wheel rides up over a large boulder, the RF suspension is free to compress independently of the other front wheel. Therefore it has less effect on the attitude of the truck. This applies ONLY to crawling. At speed, on or off road, you will see insane body roll, and will probably roll and die!

Now if you go over the same boulder with the bar connected, then as the RF tries to compress, the bar is forcing the LF to compress also. This will cause one of two things to happen, depending on the angle of the ground, weight/balance of the truck and its load, etc. Either the whole truck will lean to the left as the RF rides up on the boulder, possibly lifting the RR, or the truck will stay more level and the whole front end will come off the ground, possibly lifting the LF wheel.

For illustrative purposes let's imagine a truck on level ground with a boulder in front of the right front wheel. Imagine if you had a straight horizontal line on the ground we'll call the "ground plane," and then another line under the tires we'll call the "wheel plane." Now imagine another horizontal line across the body of the truck. We'll call that one the "body plane." As long as we are sitting on level ground all three will be on the same plane. The job of the stability bar is to keep the wheel and body planes the same in relation to each other. Forgive my crude art skills, but here is a sketch to illustrate:

First, sitting on level ground:

IMG_20120426_005751.jpg



Then we drive up on a boulder with the bar connected. As the RF rises onto the boulder and tries to compress, the bar is going to either (A):

Force the LF to compress as well, which will lean the truck and possibly lift the RR:

IMG_20120426_005618.jpg


Or (B):

Prevent the RF from compressing, which will lift the whole front:

IMG_20120426_012114.jpg


Essentially you are trying to compress both front suspensions with just the RF wheel. Whether it does A or B will depend on the angle of the ground plane, weight distribution of the vehicle, etc.


Now if we go over the boulder with the bar disconnected, then the RF is free to compress independently, with much less effect on the body plane:

IMG_20120426_005634.jpg



I hope that all makes sense. It is 0130 in the morning, so if not I'll blame it on that!
 
Last edited:

backcountryislife

Well-Known Member
Messages
858
Location
Dumont, CO
Scarsman, PERFECT example of what I've been trying to say. I disagree about the body roll though, I've driven vehicles without a sway bar on the road, then with... oh man, it's noticeable (or, in THOSE vehicles it was)

I think eliminating that body roll away from an obstacle will help keep the rears on the ground better as well.

For those of you that are locked, I think this isn't nearly the issue it is for me (and I think MOST of you are locked right?) for me, just keeping the wheels on the ground a little more will be a huge factor, because I spin a ton. (F&R)

The rear, with 35's seems to stuff the tire RIGHT up to the fenderwell, so I worry about disconnecting as I sit right now, but with the shackles on (yes, I need to get them on still... friggin lazy) I'm thinking that will help.


06h3... I don't think I'd leave the front disconnecting for daily driving, I at least plan to re-connect each time. To me it's not worth the accident if I needed to swerve for a deer & lost the truck.
 
Last edited:

bebe

Moderator
Messages
1,375
Location
Dayton, NV
If I can state it more simply

You will feel a difference with the front swaybar disconnected in low speed crawling situations, it will lessen body roll - but it will be more noticeable if the rear is disconnected too.

All of the limiting forces of the torsion (swaybar) is relieved. It will improve traction withing the limits of the suspension itself.

It's a great idea off road and a really bad choice on road.
 

bebe

Moderator
Messages
1,375
Location
Dayton, NV
do you feel disconnecting the front for the small travel gain is worth the added body roll? When you say stock, does my setup still fit under that category...it still is running stock a arms and front end components.

Yours is no longer stock, however, if you look under your upper a-arm on the frame you will see your down travel bump, and IIRC the rancho kit extends your up travel bump?

Anyway, you won't be pulling your shafts out, or breaking them, all of the necessary limits still exist.
 

tomp

Well-Known Member
Messages
256
Location
Dallas
With the SB connected and both tires making contact (and shocks not at their max length), there can still be a loss of traction in off camber situations. Let's assume one front wheel is atop a rock but the rock is covered with ice. The other wheel is contacting dry compacted dirt (that would offer excellent traction) and we are driving uphill. The swaybar can actually "attempt" to lift the tire contacting the dirt in this situation, as it tries to keep the body/wheels level. Granted this might be just a slight lifting effect of the swaybar and not actually lift the tire off the ground, there is still a loss of traction. Ideally, we want maximum force applied downward on the wheel on the dirt even when shocks are not extended to their max. The swaybar is actually reducing the downward force that would normally be exerted by the torsion bar - for this wheel on the dirt.

In theory, there are traction advantages to disconnecting the sway bar. It's not all about the flex, but the traction that is lost as a result of having a sway bar connected. I have also experienced inceased traction with the SBs disconnected - it is noticable.

Here comes the bad news....

Besides being unsafe and should only be done offroad, there are other concerns. Body roll in certain offroad scenarios can be unsafe if excessive. Addtionally, a disconnected SB can interfere with tie rods and other steering components on an IFS rig. The ultimate end links for our IFS rigs would be end links that would allow for Extending and Collapsing of the end links, but control the amount of movement so to not interfere with steering components. They should also allow for re-connecting when on highway.

I have a concept that would allow for us to disco using the above method, but would require significant interest before purusing the fabrication and manufacturing of them. It would be a large effort and require funding.
 
Last edited:

Hunner

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,334
Location
Arkansas
I joined in this discussion being interested in some different people expressing their take on all this, this time around. As always I have not yet developed a matter of fact, effect and reactions of changes in the total suspension but I always want to learn more. I did make an effort not to state any conclusion of whether or not to disconnect the anti-sway bar under any circumstances, leaving that to the OP and others. I did tell of some results I observed by disconnecting things one at a time to add to the discussions as it was asked for reasons to disconnect or not and see what others had to say after reading at least what I had found out doing these things. I do not have a set opinion of the best option which is why I was being neutral and just state the results I had while exploring possibilities.
In the shop if an H3 is jacked up with both wheels off the ground and you place a second jack under an a-arm and remove the lower mounting bolt for the shock then let the jack down the suspension will come down some. As in previous pictures posted. At that point the OEM anti-sway bar links will be cocked up to their limit preventing a bit more travel down. One of the reasons at that time I replaced them with adjustable was so I could find what length would prevent that maxed out link from being damaged. I am running adjustable links at about 6 1/2 inches. Part of that was to match the travel of longer shocks and to have adjustment to find the sweet spot to clear the clevis on my BP tie rods that still do not create bump steer. Disconnecting those OEM links and then placing them level will show the total amount the shocks and anti-sway bar DO hold up the suspension. In the pictures I have shown many times this is evident. The anti-sway bar rotates down but at some point is preventing some travel down.
Whether that has any advantage or not I don't know but anybody can check that by simply doing that procedure themselves. If anyone comes up with different results having actually done that I would be more than interested how yours did not drop anymore and would like to see pictures so I can figure out why mine is unique to that result.
 
Last edited:
S

SedonaBound

Guest
This is a superb thread and I thank each of the posters for so much great info. Its a veritable H3 IFS seminar. It should be required reading for anyone considering suspension mods. Too often mods are done with little understanding of the underlying principles or the resulting benefits...and risk to rig and person. Great job, guys!!
 

bebe

Moderator
Messages
1,375
Location
Dayton, NV
I have a concept that would allow for us to disco using the above method, but would require significant interest before purusing the fabrication and manufacturing of them. It would be a large effort and require funding.

Hmmm - there are so many options on the market already.

Google Sway bar Disconnects or Quick Disconnect End Links. Lots of options, adjustable ones too.

Here is a bunch from 4wheel parts
http://www.4wheelparts.com/Lift-Kit...connect-End-Link.aspx?t_c=1&t_s=399&t_pt=4309

Rick and Jeff made me a set with some tube and a couple of Heims and bolts. Super simple and cheep....I should run out and get a pic.
 
Last edited:

Scarsman

Sponsor
Messages
1,561
Location
Monroe, WA
Scarsman, PERFECT example of what I've been trying to say. I disagree about the body roll though, I've driven vehicles without a sway bar on the road, then with... oh man, it's noticeable (or, in THOSE vehicles it was)

Actually, we don't disagree at all. Like I said, it was 0130 in the morning. I've edited my "less body roll" statement to reflect that this is only in reference to crawling off road. No stability bar at speed, on or off road, can be deadly and should NOT be done.


Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

elripster

Well-Known Member
Messages
111
Location
San Diego
I wanted to echo Bebe, don't disconnect at speed or on road, the truck exhibits weird characteristics. I did this for a short distance (yes the engineer in me has to find out for myself) and found the truck trying to set up a "death wobble" (solid axle trucks like my Land Cruiser can do this if they don't have enough caster or things get too worn). At 50 MPH it started to wobble then settled out. Our suspensions are good and flexy which is a bonus on the trail but we need our sway bars on the road or at speed for stability.

Frank
 
S

SedonaBound

Guest
I wonder if anyone has looked at the LC/Lexus electronic sway bar disconnects? Push-button disconnects would be pretty slick.
 

tomp

Well-Known Member
Messages
256
Location
Dallas
Hey Bebe - I have seen the many variable options out there. The idea I was working on is totally different and would be a good idea for a patent. Basically, the concept is that the links would work like a shock until they were locked in place. When locked in position, they would then be fixed like standard end links.
 
Last edited:

bebe

Moderator
Messages
1,375
Location
Dayton, NV
There was a time in the last few months where I kept breaking my swaybar end link mounts on the front upper A-arm (we switched to the upper a-arm during the bebemonster build) any-who, I could totally tell when I broke it (happened at least 3-4 times before Rick and Jeff finally "Fixed" it).

As I was going into a turn, I could feel the truck lean, and it would keep leaning until it hit the limit strap.And I could feel it hit that strap hard. Pretty scary!
 

bebe

Moderator
Messages
1,375
Location
Dayton, NV
Hey Bebe - I have seen the many variable options out there. The idea I was working on is totally different and would be a good idea for a patent. Basically, the concept is that the links would work like a shock until they were locked in place. When locked in position, they would then be fixed like standard end links.

Get it on you!
 

Steve #1

Well-Known Member
Messages
534
Location
TEXAS
Seriously, you cannot break a CV at full droop just because you are at full droop. Go through a dip fast you'll hit full droop on the way out. Go over a rise in the road fast, same thing on the way over. Go fast on a fire road and you'll hit full droop and compression like crazy, no broken half shafts will result. Hit up the sand dunes and you'll again hit full droop all day long and you won't break a half shaft in the sand. You have to realize that the suspension is limited by GM engineering to a range that will not itself break the shaft by the shock and jounce bumper.

Every example I just made also should help illustrate why the sway bar does not limit travel like the hard limits built into the suspension do. It will decrease flex when crawling down a trail... when you need it the most.

Now if you get a lot of wheel spin and touch down you can sure break stuff quickly. You will not be able to know where the suspension actually was when the shaft snapped but rest assured you were putting pressure on it and it was on its way up.

<snip>
Frank

I'll assume you were directing this at me.

I would agree that a CV joint should function at full drop without breaking. I wouldn't be worried about it.

Now, back to the real world, it did happen to me. Just to clarify, the majority of the trucks weight in the rear was being supported by the axle that was sitting on a rock which I was not aware of. The front tires were on sand that had filled in ruts going up the hill. Again I didn't realize it wasn't solid ground, I had just stopped for the truck in front of me and rolled back a little. As I start to pull up the hill all these things came in to play. Front tires dug in with very little effort from me and there goes the CV joint. No solid ground under the front tires as the front of the truck was now being supported by the crosmember and skid plates that were on the ground. There was no bouncing or significant steering. There is a chance that the traction control kicked in.

I do not know what caused the CV to fail, I only know the situation in which it occurred. It could have failed due to stress that occurred earlier in the day, or in the previous 30K or so miles combined with the suspension being fully extended.

Like I started my first post, I was passing it on "for what it was worth." I don't appreciate you implying that what I said was impossible or untrue.
 
Top