ok, so remind me of why we can't run disconnects on the front, on the H3?

[06 H3]

mine flexes up just fine. :wink:

as I tell my brother....flex is overrated!

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[Timgco]

I won;t be able to this wekend. Thanks for the invite though. Raincheck.

I "thought" by disco'ing the front you will cause CV issues. too much droop and the angles are too much. shorter bumps, you get the same thing. I also thought by flexing too much, it had something to do with the front diff twisting and cracking (except on the cast iron setups). T bar crank too high will have the same effect.
I know when I had my 08Alpha we cranked the T bars to 24.25 and flexed it up. It was way too much angle for me on those CV's. We determined 23.25 was the "safe spot" and flexed it up with both stock bumpstops and extnded with and without the swaybar attached. I never did do teh shackle mod though. Mine had issues and was in the shop towards the end..all the fricken time! :gaah: long story.

Since I no longer have the Alpha (gone for some time) I cannot review what we found before with measurements/ pics. It's been a while. But Hunner has the all the info on this. As we discussed this some time ago, he showed the good, the bad, and the ugly with the front...along with what upgrades he did to his steering with better allowance on tireods, steering bushing, etc.

You can disco the rear, easy enough and that will help some with keeping the tires planted. It made a difference on droop and that in turn helped the front some.
all you need is longer 5100's out back and shackle. you could do brakelines too, but ABS wires may be the next issue if you go to long.

I think the best way to answer your questions would be to show you the angles of your CV's in the safe zone while compressed and drooped. I think that would show you more or less why disco'ing the front would not be a good idea IF you are already cranked in the front.

If I am not explaining this properly, please correct me. trying the best I can without a truck and without the pics we once had.

 

[Timgco]

PAGING RECON! PAGING RECON! He has THE BEST custom setup I have seen to date. love that rig!!!

 

[backcountryislife]

Honestly I'm thinking that I could stop down travel with limiters... that seems like a good idea. Uptravel I don't see being an issue... by relocating the t-spring clocking you change the static position, and preload increases as you uptravel, so I don't feel that you're as likely to have issues in that direction. If limiting travel is the issue... that's fine, but needing them to move independently is a whole other beast.

 

[06 H3]

Its 11:18...I got home from work a little bit over an hour ago and decided I was not going to sleep until I found this rancho rig. I found it!!!

Talk about flex...

 

[06 H3]

Now that I found the damn picture I can talk about it...I believe there are no sway bars. The spring over was custom...After talking with the owner who bought it from this guy (Bjlover on this forum) he sold it because he felt the rear end was way too tall...I saw it in person and it was tall! Regardless, a spring over rear keeping it a bit lower and no sway bars can really flex it out. I think this is jeeper amount of flex...my brother better watch out!

I believe for me personally, I can achieve this without going overboard on custom stuff and I think it would be a great crawler/DD too. Custom **** is later down the road...

 

[backcountryislife]

I think that pic is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. if you look at the uptravel on the pass. side, the CV is BARELY above the center point... I don't feel that's going to be any more danger than me driving around with a T-lift. The droop on the other hand... that angle would scare me a bit, kind of confirms that limiter might be a good idea.

 

[elripster]

Honestly I'm thinking that I could stop down travel with limiters... that seems like a good idea. Uptravel I don't see being an issue... by relocating the t-spring clocking you change the static position, and preload increases as you uptravel, so I don't feel that you're as likely to have issues in that direction. If limiting travel is the issue... that's fine, but needing them to move independently is a whole other beast.

A few things to note here. GM designed your suspension to operate within safe limits. The jounce bumpers limit uptravel and the shocks limit down travel. You could get limiters for downtravel but consider you don't have them on the rear shocks and they have to hold a lot more load when the axle tops out. Crawling along a trail is exceptionally easy on a shock compared to bombing down a fire road where the suspension is slamming against both limiters hard and often.

Reclocking torsion bars will not affect the preload other than maybe slightly reducing it because the LCA is now at an angle compared to the ground. Otherwise the preload is from the weight of your truck on the front end. Reclocking doesn't make the truck heavier so the preload won't go up. If it goes down you get less flex, not more.

Now increasing the load on one wheel as you transfer weight to it will certainly push the wheel up but that's generally not called preload to help differentiate it from the load the suspension bares at rest. It's a terminology thing.

Getting the tires to move more independently is really what disconnecting sway bars is all about. Sway bars do not limit travel like a hard stop (jounce bumper, shock, limiting strap...). They can reduce flex for sure but at the expense of shifting all the load onto one wheel much more often which as mentioned is harder on half shafts (w/lockers) and steering (all trucks).

Frank

 

[elripster]

I think that pic is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. if you look at the uptravel on the pass. side, the CV is BARELY above the center point... I don't feel that's going to be any more danger than me driving around with a T-lift. The droop on the other hand... that angle would scare me a bit, kind of confirms that limiter might be a good idea.

But remember, at full droop, there is no load on the shaft or diff. The same is true for the steering with the exception of when the drooping wheel is up against a rock and you are trying to turn the wheel into the rock. That can be very hard on steering and typically pretzels a Toyota idler arm with quickness.

Frank

 

[Hunner]

In my old mind using the shocks as a support for suspension was a bad idea, but then I'm not an automotive engineer.

I think some form of limit should do that besides an $80 shock. It is what it is. I have been able to go just about anywhere I want to in my H3 and can only compare any serious offroading to my old 70 sumpthin FJ55 wagon with leaves on all four corners and straight front axle. I will take the H3.

This discussion comes up from time to time and is a good way to share this info.

I don't have exact comparison shots but here is my H3 back with OEM tie rods when I was figuring out some things. The wheel is turned more than the FJ one which changes the tie rod angle but shows tie rod angles and CV. They would have to be turned about the same for a better comparison.

The FJ was mentioned earlier and I got a shot of a friends new one when we worked on the custom winch bumper.
First thing I noticed was how flat the tie rod angles and CV's were. They are using the struts in the front end.

My H3 was turned up to 23.50 or maybe a bit more.
I had to come down after seeing the angles and to fit the BP tie rods I needed to adjust to about 23.5 to have them clear things.
I have been working off and on fitting an overload spring shock on the front as a redundant support like the torsions. I don't want to completely do a coil over just try to use this idea with my other mods. I started using the Bilsteins and sort of have this project on hold for now, as they have temporarily seemed to have helped the short comings of the OEM shocks. When I get time I will get back to it. I have not mentioned it before but want to try it when I find the right combination. Sounds like with all the brain power being spewed out in this thread I would throw that into the mix.

 

[06 H3]

Personally I say **** it...Im gonna disconnect and see what happens. Best way to learn is hands on/trial and error. I won't do anything like this on an extreme trail or with H4O because I don't wanna hold people up if I break. Ill take tools and spares in case tragedy strikes and will bring my brother and a tow strap lol. No more tow trucks!

Im sure nothing bad will happen just wanna be prepared for the worst and will report my results. First I need to run the local trails with em on first then disco and run em again...

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[Timgco]

just flex this thing up on a ramp somewhere so you can see EXACTLY what is going. If youa re on cement, you take precise measurements vs in the dirt on un-even surfaces....better chance of NOT braking something too. ...my 2 cents

Personally I say **** it...Im gonna disconnect and see what happens. Best way to learn is hands on/trial and error. I won't do anything like this on an extreme trail or with H4O because I don't wanna hold people up if I break. Ill take tools and spares in case tragedy strikes and will bring my brother and a tow strap lol. No more tow trucks!

Im sure nothing bad will happen just wanna be prepared for the worst and will report my results. First I need to run the local trails with em on first then disco and run em again...

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[backcountryislife]

But remember, at full droop, there is no load on the shaft or diff. The same is true for the steering with the exception of when the drooping wheel is up against a rock and you are trying to turn the wheel into the rock. That can be very hard on steering and typically pretzels a Toyota idler arm with quickness.

Frank

BUT... if you're in the air at full droop, spinning, the spin/ stop I could see damaging things.

Right now, not being locked, that's my main concern, I spin a lot, and then catch, then need to hit the brakes. I'm also a 5 spd, so BTM is theoretically possible... but much harder.

I can't afford a locker right now, but I'm really tempted to just say F it & get a detroit or quiet locker style lock... but just don't want to eat up tires. I care more about the offroad than on... so maybe I should just bite the bullet & do it.


I'll be honest, if I had a locker, I wouldn't care as much, but I just get sick of spinning so much & feel like THAT is more likely to cause damage right now.

 

[backcountryislife]

In my old mind using the shocks as a support for suspension was a bad idea, but then I'm not an automotive engineer.

I think some form of limit should do that besides an $80 shock. It is what it is. I have been able to go just about anywhere I want to in my H3 and can only compare any serious offroading to my old 70 sumpthin FJ55 wagon with leaves on all four corners and straight front axle. I will take the H3.

This discussion comes up from time to time and is a good way to share this info.

I don't have exact comparison shots but here is my H3 back with OEM tie rods when I was figuring out some things. The wheel is turned more than the FJ one which changes the tie rod angle but shows tie rod angles and CV. They would have to be turned about the same for a better comparison.

The FJ was mentioned earlier and I got a shot of a friends new one when we worked on the custom winch bumper.
First thing I noticed was how flat the tie rod angles and CV's were. They are using the struts in the front end.

My H3 was turned up to 23.50 or maybe a bit more.
I had to come down after seeing the angles and to fit the BP tie rods I needed to adjust to about 23.5 to have them clear things.
I have been working off and on fitting an overload spring shock on the front as a redundant support like the torsions. I don't want to completely do a coil over just try to use this idea with my other mods. I started using the Bilsteins and sort of have this project on hold for now, as they have temporarily seemed to have helped the short comings of the OEM shocks. When I get time I will get back to it. I have not mentioned it before but want to try it when I find the right combination. Sounds like with all the brain power being spewed out in this thread I would throw that into the mix.

You're comparing a FJ sitting flat to an H3 lifted though right?

I agree 100% about the shock as a limiting mech... kinda sketchy if you eliminate the sway bar. If it's damping it properly, the hit should be minimal, and obviously there's no weight other than wheel/ spring return throwing it that way, BUT with cashed shocks & poor damping... I could see that being a bad thing.


Btw, the limiter strap you had in a pic above, where did you get that?

 

[06 H3]

Like that dirt ramp up the street!

And that is my concern...full droop and spinning...then ur screwed

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[Steve #1]

But remember, at full droop, there is no load on the shaft or diff. The same is true for the steering with the exception of when the drooping wheel is up against a rock and you are trying to turn the wheel into the rock. That can be very hard on steering and typically pretzels a Toyota idler arm with quickness.

Frank

Like that dirt ramp up the street!

And that is my concern...full droop and spinning...then ur screwed

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For what it's worth, I've broken one CV. Going up a sandy hill and rolled back and caught the rear diff on a rock. With the wheels strait and gentle throttle the front dug holes, fully dropped and banm! So, with no weight on the wheel, and not doing anything crazy, the CV gave out when it fully extended. This was with the front end at 23.5.

 

[backcountryislife]

For what it's worth, I've broken one CV. Going up a sandy hill and rolled back and caught the rear diff on a rock. With the wheels strait and gentle throttle the front dug holes, fully dropped and banm! So, with no weight on the wheel, and not doing anything crazy, the CV gave out when it fully extended. This was with the front end at 23.5.

Perfect example, thanks!

That's what I was thinking was the real danger.

I'm disconnecting now for the weekend, but going to take it easy till I get it limited somehow. I want the uptravel more than anything.


Next step is a locker, to take the stress off of spinning so much... new thread coming in 3,2,....

 

[Hunner]

Yea that was an H3 lifted slightly compared to the FJ, like I said. I can't find a shot of the H3 before cranking the t bars but the angle is still a lot steeper than those flat ones on the FJ, just as a comparison. I have not looked up all the specific measurements in a long time of the angles of the H3 stock, lifted at different heights. Probably on an old hard drive. I will look some more to see if I have one or maybe someone can come up with one that has not turned theirs up yet.
Well I still can't find the shot on the lot I was looking for. Here is my 06 the day I got it.

The limit straps I had made. All the stock ones I looked at were too thin, not the right length and the ends needed to be turned opposite of each other. I mounted them with one bracket on top of the shock and one on the lower shock bolt. I did not want to drill into the shock tower to mount them as I was not sure that would provide the right angle.
Also like some Fox Shock owners are finding out the shocks do rotate sometimes and they are having problems with the mounting clip for the res ripping off when attached to the tower that does not spin.
When I got the Alpha and modded it for the BP tie rods and other components I did not see the need for the straps anymore. This could be because of the supposedly "tuned" off-road shocks and the stiffer torsions.
If you have not added the extra travel or your not seeing the upper a-arm tap the metal fixed bump stop on the frame you don't need them. I sprayed paint on the aluminum upper a-arm and drove some rough trails and saw that on my 06 it was hitting, thus the straps. On the Alpha I did not see that.
I had the blue ones custom made at Oklahoma Offroad because I had a contact that new them. If you decide to go that route you need to do some serious measuring. I came up with a length specific to my H3 set up and made it a bit shorter than needed at full droop to allow for stretch. Even though these are stiff and strong I figured dropping that suspension could eventually cause some creep.
I'm just throwing all this out there but you have to make your own conclusions.
The first shot is comparing the blue to the black from another supplier. That was before I thought to have the ends opposed. It took me two tries to get the right length.

This was also when I added the nut to the top of the shock to get the 1/2 inch more travel. Part of what I did, you still have to lengthen the anti-sway bar link as I know for a fact it holds up the suspension after you disconnect the shock.

It's important to note you have to make them fit your particular set up. This is still the first set before I reversed one bracket.

 

[06 H3]

elripster, have you had that issue where at full droop you broke a CV with the sway bars disconnected?

 

[elripster]

For what it's worth, I've broken one CV. Going up a sandy hill and rolled back and caught the rear diff on a rock. With the wheels strait and gentle throttle the front dug holes, fully dropped and banm! So, with no weight on the wheel, and not doing anything crazy, the CV gave out when it fully extended. This was with the front end at 23.5.

You CV broke when the wheel touched down and and the shaft had to absorb all that kinetic energy in your drive train. Up off the ground there is no load on the shaft. The wheels hopping, catching is a very common way to break half shafts, diffs, lockers, etc... Keeping the wheels on the ground is the first step to avoid this and yes more flex (sway bar disconnected) will help keep the wheels on the ground. Ultimately you have to be careful with the right foot. Old 4X4's were usually very under powered (see Toyota) but our trucks (yes even the 5 cyls) have 100 HP+ on those older IFS yotas. As a result we have a bigger "hammer" with which to break a powertrain.

Frank

Frank

 

[elripster]

Seriously, you cannot break a CV at full droop just because you are at full droop. Go through a dip fast you'll hit full droop on the way out. Go over a rise in the road fast, same thing on the way over. Go fast on a fire road and you'll hit full droop and compression like crazy, no broken half shafts will result. Hit up the sand dunes and you'll again hit full droop all day long and you won't break a half shaft in the sand. You have to realize that the suspension is limited by GM engineering to a range that will not itself break the shaft by the shock and jounce bumper.

Every example I just made also should help illustrate why the sway bar does not limit travel like the hard limits built into the suspension do. It will decrease flex when crawling down a trail... when you need it the most.

Now if you get a lot of wheel spin and touch down you can sure break stuff quickly. You will not be able to know where the suspension actually was when the shaft snapped but rest assured you were putting pressure on it and it was on its way up.

Zillions of vehicles use the shocks as limiters. It's totally normal and as long as the shock was designed for it, which most are, you have nothing to worry about. When you get into long travel and/or big wheels the suspension builds a lot of momentum as it extends so limit straps can really help. Over the range of our stock vehicles suspension travel the shocks are fine.

I have no issues when I disconnect my sway bars. My truck just flexes better and my wheels spend more time on the ground.

Frank

 

[backcountryislife]

So, you disconnect each time right? What to do do to hold up the sway bar?

 

[06 H3]

I disconnected and went to the famous "flex hill" by my house. I had the rear disconnected and the front connected and saw a small difference. I know that the shocks are the limiting factor here. I wanted to disconnect the shocks to see how much more I could go but I didnt have anyone with me to tell me if I was on the verge of ripping out my abs wires so I didnt do it. Then I tried disconnecting the front and having the rear connected and noticed a huge difference!

I really feel bad for the bumpstop!

Here is the difference with the front and rear connected flexing up in reverse compared to the rear connected and the front disconnected. I didnt measure but would say I travelled 4-6inches further until I lifted a tire...not sure what that means in terms of travel #'s.

I felt a huge stability gain with the front disconnected until I got some air then I freaked out. I really wanna try a local trail with the front and rear disconnected but am kinda nervous lol

 

[backcountryislife]

Good stuff man, got a few spots where I know I bounce around, curious to see how different it feels with a little more separation.

 

[Hunner]

I shot these back when I first got these wheels and 35's and wanted to see how much more I needed to trim the flares to run the 35's.
I did not get far up the ramp before getting close to the flares. I have since done a drastic trim of the under side but not sure how much farther I could have gone without them trimmed.
I don't know the angle of those metal ramps you are showing?
Not having any of those I found these concrete barriers of which there are thousands of on the freeway around here. These were in a gravel pit, (Hunner proving grounds) lol
This is with all my set up but with anti-sway bars connected. Maybe someday I can go back and try disconnected just for grins.