Its for sale again! The famous low buck SAC white H3 from CO

[07Custom]

And does anyone know what kind of roof rack/crossbar that is? It looks good and I'd like to get another one haha

 

[06 H3]

I think in terms of lockers unless your wheeling a locker doesn't need to on the top of the list. I would look into the unsafe things first. I'd like to see the steering setup...don't know if u posted pics on the other forum or not of steering but id like to see that...

In terms of a wider rim Idk that answer lol

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[06 H3]

And does anyone know what kind of roof rack/crossbar that is? It looks good and I'd like to get another one haha

The ones in the pics past look like Yakima bars...oem ones look good too, do u have an intended purpose or look? If it's just for looks, oem ones will do just fine if its for heavier loads like a bolt on rack Yakima would be better

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[07Custom]

haha yeah a locker isn't a necessity but if I have it, I wanna make sure it works. The steering is my main concern. It hasn't given me any problems yet other than being a little "loose" and bebe had pointed me in the right direction in saying it was the steering gear box. On the other forum someone had recognized it and we decided it was from a 86-88 toyota 4runner.

As for steering pictures, what exactly do you want. Be as specific as you need to be, and I will get pictures asap!

 

[07Custom]

The ones in the pics past look like Yakima bars...oem ones look good too, do u have an intended purpose or look? If it's just for looks, oem ones will do just fine if its for heavier loads like a bolt on rack Yakima would be better

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I wouldn't necessarily have heavy loads, maybe a few snowboards or something. I wish I could throw a mountain bike up there too.

 

[06 H3]

The steering box pic I saw earlier in this thread was a close up. If u can get one a bit further out that would be good.

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[07Custom]

Is this any better? Ran outside with my phone

 

[06 H3]

Thanks, definitely interesting...so do u have plans for fixing the loose feel?

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[Mr_Rich]

Back in the '70's & '80's the live axle full-size Blazers had full-time transfer cases and owners were swapping out the front hubs for a part-time set-up. Maybe you'll have to go "old school" to get this truck sorted out. I think if memory serves me they were NP-208 transfer cases. I know the later transfer cases like the NP-241 in my K1500 put the drive shaft on the driver's side rather than the pass. side.

 

[07Custom]

Thanks, definitely interesting...so do u have plans for fixing the loose feel?

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I think so. From what I've been reading and asking about, the "play" in the steering wheel is due to the gear box. I found a remanufactured one online for $175 with a lifetime warranty. A few posts back someone was talking about reinforcing the pitman arm? I really need to educate myself as to what some parts due such as the arm, and figure out how to fix the problems. The bump steer...I need to look into the mechanism causing that too. I'm just hoping these aren't ridiculously expensive problems to fix.

 

[07Custom]

Back in the '70's & '80's the live axle full-size Blazers had full-time transfer cases and owners were swapping out the front hubs for a part-time set-up. Maybe you'll have to go "old school" to get this truck sorted out. I think if memory serves me they were NP-208 transfer cases. I know the later transfer cases like the NP-241 in my K1500 put the drive shaft on the driver's side rather than the pass. side.

I'm not 100% sure if my answer really answers your idea, but the front hubs are lockable and unlockable so I can take it out of full time 4wd. It's weird though, if I unlock the hubs up front, I need to be in 4hi with the rear locker on to go anywhere. If I push it into regular 4hi I go nowhere if I don't have the hubs locked.

 

[Pappibri]

:corn:Like a movie being played out..

 

[06 H3]

Does anyone know why the rear locker has to be on for it to move? I understand why 4Hi locked needs to be engaged to move but the need for the locker just confuses me lol

 

[07Custom]

Does anyone know why the rear locker has to be on for it to move? I understand why 4Hi locked needs to be engaged to move but the need for the locker just confuses me lol

well, if my hubs arent locked up front i need to be in 4hi locked. if i lock the hubs 4hi reg works. I always thought that driving around with hubs locked was bad but everyone over on hummerxclub said it was perfectly fine

 

[MaxPF]

Back in the '70's & '80's the live axle full-size Blazers had full-time transfer cases and owners were swapping out the front hubs for a part-time set-up. Maybe you'll have to go "old school" to get this truck sorted out. I think if memory serves me they were NP-208 transfer cases. I know the later transfer cases like the NP-241 in my K1500 put the drive shaft on the driver's side rather than the pass. side.

Those were older 70's era trucks. Transfer case was the 203. Mile Marker made a popular kit to convert the 203 from a full-time case to a part-time case. Nowandays the main use for 203's are as parts cases to steal the range box section from to make a beefy all-gear 203-205 doubler setup. Anyway, eventually the 203 full-time setup went to the wayside because of fuel mileage issues. They were initially replaced with the 205, and then around 1980 or so the chain-drive 208 appeared. The 208 lasted until 1987 or thereabouts, when it was replaced with the far superior 241. 241's were made in both pass. drop and driver drop configurations, and is one of the best HD chain drive cases ever made. I have a pass. drop 241 with a slip yoke eliminator in my Blazer right now. If I was going to convert an H3 to a manual shift part time case and didn't want to run an Atlas or 205, the 241 would be my first pick.

I think so. From what I've been reading and asking about, the "play" in the steering wheel is due to the gear box. I found a remanufactured one online for $175 with a lifetime warranty. A few posts back someone was talking about reinforcing the pitman arm? I really need to educate myself as to what some parts due such as the arm, and figure out how to fix the problems. The bump steer...I need to look into the mechanism causing that too. I'm just hoping these aren't ridiculously expensive problems to fix.

A leaf sprung D44 is one of the cheapest axle assemblies to install and repair. What kind of steering box is that? Looks like a Toyota box I would rather see a Saginaw box from a full size 2WD truck on there, but if that box holds up fine I wouldn't worry about it.

Bump steer has several causes. First off, are the ball joints, drag link ends, and tie rod ends in good shape? Next, when the swap was done did they maintain a proper amount of caster? Finally, any SAS that doesn't have a Panhard bar to locate the axle will have some bump steer as the suspension (particularly the pass. side) cycles. This is because of the geometry change as the axle moves straight and the drag link moves in an arc, which effectively causes a small steering input. A Panhard bar (aka track bar) that is similar in length to, and mounted nearly or exactly parallel with, the drag link will cause the axle to travel in an identical arc as the drag link, eliminating the bump steer.

I'm not 100% sure if my answer really answers your idea, but the front hubs are lockable and unlockable so I can take it out of full time 4wd. It's weird though, if I unlock the hubs up front, I need to be in 4hi with the rear locker on to go anywhere. If I push it into regular 4hi I go nowhere if I don't have the hubs locked.

Does anyone know why the rear locker has to be on for it to move? I understand why 4Hi locked needs to be engaged to move but the need for the locker just confuses me lol

Thats what I'm wondering. Does 07Custom mean to say it has to be in 4Hi Lock, or does he mean that the actual rear locker needs to be locked? If the latter it makes no sense unless something in the diff is broken

 

[Mr_Rich]

I think what they're trying to tell you is that with the hubs locked and the transfer case in 4hi your truck is running in full-time 4wd like it was before modification. You're not really getting the benefit of having locking hubs up front in the first place. The original idea was to keep from turning the front axle and driveshaft all the time so that there would be some savings on gas mileage. Back in the '70's most 4wd trucks didn't get very good mpg and being able to unlock the front hubs helped gain an mpg or two. My Chevy K1500 EC with a 350 can get up to 17 mpg on the highway. Back in the '70's, most trucks couldn't get anywhere close to mileage like that.

 

[07Custom]

Sorry for the confusion, I mean that it has to be in standard 4hi lock (the one with a pic of the lock next to the arrow pointing up, it's the second button on the push transfer case) in order to drive, but this is only when I don't have the front axle engaged. If my hubs are locked up front I can drive in any of the transfer case options.

As for the steering issues you brought up, I would definitely have to look into it. A lot of people get mad at us who buy vehicles and know nothing about them, but I am definitely willing to learn as much as I can. Are there any pictures I can take for you guys to look at and determine if the points you brought up are relevant to my truck?

Again, thanks everyone.

 

[07Custom]

I think what they're trying to tell you is that with the hubs locked and the transfer case in 4hi your truck is running in full-time 4wd like it was before modification. You're not really getting the benefit of having locking hubs up front in the first place. The original idea was to keep from turning the front axle and driveshaft all the time so that there would be some savings on gas mileage. Back in the '70's most 4wd trucks didn't get very good mpg and being able to unlock the front hubs helped gain an mpg or two. My Chevy K1500 EC with a 350 can get up to 17 mpg on the highway. Back in the '70's, most trucks couldn't get anywhere close to mileage like that.

I drove it home from Loveland with the front unlocked and the truck in 4hi locked. But everyone said that it would do more damage that way than it would if I had the hubs locked. In your opinion, would driving around with hubs unlocked and 4hi locked on be troublesome? Because I have noticed a little drop in MPG.

 

[Mr_Rich]

quoting MaxPF:
"Bump steer has several causes. First off, are the ball joints, drag link ends, and tie rod ends in good shape? Next, when the swap was done did they maintain a proper amount of caster? Finally, any SAS that doesn't have a Panhard bar to locate the axle will have some bump steer as the suspension (particularly the pass. side) cycles. This is because of the geometry change as the axle moves straight and the drag link moves in an arc, which effectively causes a small steering input. A Panhard bar (aka track bar) that is similar in length to, and mounted nearly or exactly parallel with, the drag link will cause the axle to travel in an identical arc as the drag link, eliminating the bump steer."

I like to read about some of these mods in magazines. The pumpkin has to be in the correct angle with the front driveshaft and transfer case so you don't use up U-joints by the case. Then the outer knuckles have to have the correct angle in relation to the pumpkin so that caster can be correct. I'm wondering what the alignment specs are on this truck. I think we're all interested to see it get sorted out.

 

[07Custom]

quoting MaxPF:
"Bump steer has several causes. First off, are the ball joints, drag link ends, and tie rod ends in good shape? Next, when the swap was done did they maintain a proper amount of caster? Finally, any SAS that doesn't have a Panhard bar to locate the axle will have some bump steer as the suspension (particularly the pass. side) cycles. This is because of the geometry change as the axle moves straight and the drag link moves in an arc, which effectively causes a small steering input. A Panhard bar (aka track bar) that is similar in length to, and mounted nearly or exactly parallel with, the drag link will cause the axle to travel in an identical arc as the drag link, eliminating the bump steer."

I like to read about some of these mods in magazines. The pumpkin has to be in the correct angle with the front driveshaft and transfer case so you don't use up U-joints by the case. Then the outer knuckles have to have the correct angle in relation to the pumpkin so that caster can be correct. I'm wondering what the alignment specs are on this truck. I think we're all interested to see it get sorted out.

any way I can find these specs out by myself? Or do I need to take it in?

 

[MaxPF]

Sorry for the confusion, I mean that it has to be in standard 4hi lock (the one with a pic of the lock next to the arrow pointing up, it's the second button on the push transfer case) in order to drive, but this is only when I don't have the front axle engaged. If my hubs are locked up front I can drive in any of the transfer case options.

The reason for this is that the stock H3 transfer case has a differential in it to allow for full time 4WD. Without the differential (i.e. when you are in 4wd lock, which locks the diff in the transfer case, or in vehicles with part-time 4WD cases) and driving on high traction surfaces (i.e. asphalt, concrete) you would get binding and then scrubbing between the front and rear as they travel different amounts during the course of driving (due mainly to turning, which causes the front axle to travel further than the rear axle). The is hard on tires and parts. Off road you are typically on a lower traction surface (i.e. dirt), so the tires can slip a bit to absorb the difference when you are in 4wd lock. Anyway, the diff in the t-case acts just like the diff in an axle. In an axle, if one tire has traction and the other doesn't, all the torque goes to the tire with less traction and you get the "one-wheel- peel". The diff in the t-case is the same way. When you unlock the hubs in the front you have no load on the front driveshaft. With the t-case in normal full-time mode, the case's internal diff will send all the torque to the front driveshaft, and you don't move. Engage 4wd lock, and the internal diff is locked and torque will be applied equally to both shafts, just like a part-time t-case. That is why you have to either have the hubs locked or run in 4-hi lock.

FWIW there should be no issues running it either way. Running on the street with the hubs locked and t-case in normal 4WD mode will let it behave like a stock H3, with the added traction and lower fuel economy. Unlock the hubs and run in 4-hi lock gives you less traction (which you will likely never notice on-road, even in the rain) but less parasitic drag and thus better fuel economy. Take your pick.

any way I can find these specs out by myself? Or do I need to take it in?

Which specs? I'm not sure what the stock application for your D44 was, or if it is an aftermarket axle, but typical factory installs put the pinion centerline parallel with the ground or slightly elevated. Since the inner C's are welded to the axle tubes, the caster is fixed in relation to the diff. Thus, the only way to change it is to remove and rotate the C's and then weld them back in place (NOT something the average DIYer, or even the average shop mechanics, can do), or rotate the entire axle using wedge shims between the spring and axle. As a rule, typical SA caster is 2 to 8 degrees positive, with 4-6 degrees being pretty typical. Insufficient caster will tend to make the vehicle wander and react more to bumps, while more caster improves straight-line stability while increasing steering effort a bit (not really noticeable with power steering and normal caster angles). The exact amount of caster isn't very critical on a SA vehicle, but if it is less than 2 degrees positive or negative (positive means the top of the kingpin axis, which is an imaginary line drawn between the center of the upper and lower ball joint on a D44, will be rotated rearward - negative caster means the top of the kingpin axis is rotated forward), it needs to be changed.

Don't spend money at an alignment shop with a solid front axle rig. Once the axle is installed with an appropriate amount of caster, the only alignment adjustment that is changeable is toe, and that can be done with two guys and a tape measure. Once toe is set it shouldn't change unless you bend the tie rod on a rock

 

[07Custom]

Wow, very informative. I really wish I had a forum member living here in town so they could check out my setup and give me some insight. I definitely need to find out if I have the right amount of caster, and also figure out how to align it for future reference.

 

[ReconH3]

Even though I can help since I have a similar setup and some mechanical knowledge, Max is definitely a much better source for information and knowledge.


"Ex Umbris Venimus"

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[06 H3]

Idk how maxpf knows all this stuff! Im glad alrock got him to join the forum...

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[MaxPF]

Wow, very informative. I really wish I had a forum member living here in town so they could check out my setup and give me some insight. I definitely need to find out if I have the right amount of caster, and also figure out how to align it for future reference.

Well, like I said, first thing is to make sure the setup is mechanically sound by inspecting the ball joints, tie rod ends, drag link ends, and the steering box for play and worn/bad sector shaft bearing (sector shaft is the thing coming out of the box that the Pitman arm is attached to). Any of those parts being worn can cause issues ranging from wandering to apparent bump steer to death wobble. If all the parts are in good shape, then the next thing to check is the caster angle. If the caster angle is good you may need a Panhard rod, assuming you don't already have one. Pics of your front end setup?