Its for sale again! The famous low buck SAC white H3 from CO

[07Custom]

Here's some pics I just took. Probably not the best or that informative but if you want specifics give me a description and I'll be more than happy to snap em for ya!

 

[07Custom]

Also, for everyone wondering, No ABS and No traction control. The axle wasn't set up with tone rings and all, Recons' truck was done amazingly. I can tell you today no ABS wasn't a problem today when some ******* in a F150 cut me off going about 35 mph...slammed the brakes and it was fine.

The dash isn't lit up too badly. Just an ABS light and a traction control light, the dash does flash though "abs failed, check traction control". I didn't expect it to have these options though since the front end was swapped. The only thing I've had to get used to is the steering, which I will hopefully be fixing up asap!

I am in now way doubting anyone's knowledge, but the owners manual says driving in 4wheel hi Lock on pavement for extended periods "can cause premature wear on the powertrain and tires". How extensive can this wear be, and is it really a cause of concern?

 

[MaxPF]

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Here's some pics I just took. Probably not the best or that informative but if you want specifics give me a description and I'll be more than happy to snap em for ya!

It looks as though there is indeed a Panhard rod already installed. I didn't see a mount in the pass. side pics you posted so I am guessing it is attached to the pass. side spring mount. It may have worn bushings unless they are urethane. I did notice that if it's mounted to the pass. spring pad, then it is a bit shorter than the drag link and also not even close to parallel, but it is definitely better than nothing.

Holy Scary Steering Batman!!! I am dismayed to see that the swapper used spherical rod ends (aka Heim joints) on the drag link and tie rod rather than standard DRE's and TRE's (drag link ends and tie rod ends). That isn't the scary part; the scary part is that the drag link rod end on the knuckle side is mounted single-shear, which is not a proper mounting arrangement using standard SAE bolts for a safety critical item. DRE's and TRE's are single-shear, but they mount in a taper which prevents the stress riser that a single shear bolt will see. Also, the rod ends being used don't appear to be very large... 1/2" maybe (I'm talking about the diameter of the shank and the bolt retaining it)? Mounting that rod end double shear would make me feel a lot better (the rest already are double shear). I am also concerned about the Pitman arm... I'd like a close look at it before I commented further though. This is a very high stress part, and isn't a place for questionable weldments...

My main complaint against using rod ends on a vehicle that gets any kind of miles put on it is that they have no way of sealing out dirt or moisture, or of sealing in grease. This makes them high maintenance items compared to DLE's and TRE's, which sport seals and grease zerks. Since most people don't even maintain greasable TRE's and DLE's properly, a rod end that should to be cleaned and oiled weekly or after every rain isn't the best thing to be using on a daily driver...

Also, for everyone wondering, No ABS and No traction control. The axle wasn't set up with tone rings and all, Recons' truck was done amazingly. I can tell you today no ABS wasn't a problem today when some ******* in a F150 cut me off going about 35 mph...slammed the brakes and it was fine.

The dash isn't lit up too badly. Just an ABS light and a traction control light, the dash does flash though "abs failed, check traction control". I didn't expect it to have these options though since the front end was swapped. The only thing I've had to get used to is the steering, which I will hopefully be fixing up asap!

I am in now way doubting anyone's knowledge, but the owners manual says driving in 4wheel hi Lock on pavement for extended periods "can cause premature wear on the powertrain and tires". How extensive can this wear be, and is it really a cause of concern?

Adding the proper reluctors and pickups wouldn't be hard to do for someone who knows that they're doing. There is no reason your truck can't function just like stock with regards to ABS and traction control. That was simply lack of knowledge on the part of whoever did the swap.

Forget what the owners manual says. That is for a stock vehicle that doesn't have hub lockouts. If you are running with the hubs UNLOCKED, then using 4-hi lock on pavement is perfectly fine. If the hubs are locked, then do NOT use 4-hi lock for extended periods on pavement - use standard 4wd mode. I went over the reason for this in one of my previous posts.

 

[07Custom]

Sounds like my steering is a mess. A little discouraging. But I gotta say, I guess I'm a good driver to barely notice the craziness behind it anymore. Would replacing the tire rod ends with larger tapered ones be a difficult job? Would I be able to do it myself? I consider myself pretty good at working on vehicles...stock vehicles, but I do have a couple good actual mechanics in my family. I wont lie, you are extremely knowledgeable and all the technical terms make it confusing even though it may seem like common knowledge haha I will try my best to research and try to get on a similar level as you as far as communication goes.

I will get a pic of the pitman arm as well here in a second.

 

[07Custom]

Some of these might be re-takes, but it's a little easier to see. Keep the picture requests coming, I'm interested in getting this thing "fixed".

 

[MaxPF]

Sounds like my steering is a mess. A little discouraging. But I gotta say, I guess I'm a good driver to barely notice the craziness behind it anymore. Would replacing the tire rod ends with larger tapered ones be a difficult job? Would I be able to do it myself? I consider myself pretty good at working on vehicles...stock vehicles, but I do have a couple good actual mechanics in my family. I wont lie, you are extremely knowledgeable and all the technical terms make it confusing even though it may seem like common knowledge haha I will try my best to research and try to get on a similar level as you as far as communication goes.

I will get a pic of the pitman arm as well here in a second.

Unfortunately the pass. side knuckle has been welded to (which is scary since it is nodular or malleable iron, and it looks like it was just MIG welded ), and the tie rod mount has been drilled out for a straight bolt. In other words, you need a new knuckle. Flat top knuckles were only used up to 1976 or so, at least that style knuckle (it looks like you have a GM/Dodge/Jeep style knuckle - in fact it looks like a 1/2 ton 73-80 GM full size axle). You're choice is to either buy a good used set that has already been machined for a crossover steering arm, or buy a set of new ones from Reid racing. I actually have a set of flat top D44 knuckles and a crossover steering arm for sale (not on this site - didn't figure anyone here would need one ). A set of Reid knuckles will set you back about $500, plus a crossover arm ($100-$150, depending on the style). Then you need a proper Pitman arm from whatever steering box that is (or better yet, replace the box with a full size Saginaw box, which means more $$$ in fab work). Finally, you need a drag link and tie rod with 7/8-18 R&L hand ends, a R&L hand pair of drag link ends with jam nuts and a R&L hand pair of tie rod ends with jam nuts.

If you do that stuff you will have a safe, reliable steering setup. Whether it will fix the looseness is unknown, but at this point I am more concerned with the single shear rod end on the drag link and the weldments to the pass. side knuckle and pitman arm....

Here's what a proper crossover steering setup looks like. Note the use of DLE's and TRE's and the bolt-on crossover steering arm on the knuckle:

 

[07Custom]

Max, I'm also planning on replacing the steering damper asap. Was there a way to figure out what size I need? or is it just a matter of taking it off and measuring it next to another one? The rough country ones online are only for certain vehicles so I'm trying to figure it out.

 

[Mr_Rich]

The work looks neat. I'd have to yield to Max's opinion on the engineering of the live axle install. I see what he means about the end joints. I'm not used to all the technical names of the parts.

 

[07Custom]

The work looks neat. I'd have to yield to Max's opinion on the engineering of the live axle install. I see what he means about the end joints. I'm not used to all the technical names of the parts.

Oh definitely, the work is done very very neatly. Max is helping out greatly. What I do like is that things are solid and functioning properly for now. Nothing is super loose in regards to bolts, bars, etc. the steering is a little loose but I'm wondering if it's in the steering wheel now because even when the vehicle is parked, I can turn the wheel an inch or so loosely left and right. So I'm hoping that is the problem I'm feeling in the wheel.

So far on my list of things to do ASAP is to get the wheel looseness under control...that is what may be making me feel bump steer: when I hit a bump the wheels loosness doesn't catch right away and I over correct sometimes. I also want to replace the steering damper and also the steering box. I like the idea of a saginaw box but am shying away from it due to further fabrications. I'm not being cheap, just wanna explore all the options before fabricating even more.

 

[MaxPF]

Max, I'm also planning on replacing the steering damper asap. Was there a way to figure out what size I need? or is it just a matter of taking it off and measuring it next to another one? The rough country ones online are only for certain vehicles so I'm trying to figure it out.

Show me a pic of the damper mount on the axle. From the looks of it you have an axle from a 73-87 full size Chevy.

FWIW I wouldn't waste the $70-$100 that it costs for a damper. I'd rather put the money toward a hydro assist setup. But thats just my preference

 

[07Custom]

Show me a pic of the damper mount on the axle. From the looks of it you have an axle from a 73-87 full size Chevy.

FWIW I wouldn't waste the $70-$100 that it costs for a damper. I'd rather put the money toward a hydro assist setup. But thats just my preference

haha I don't even know what hydro assist is. From looking it up I'm seeing kits costing >$1,000 ....yikes! I also found this http://eastcoastgearsupply.com/i-134349-hydraulic-assist-steering-kit.html

I hope this is more of a realistic price ^^^ Bad thing is it requires welding...I can weld great, or at least qualified for competition in highschool but it's been forever since I've touched a welder. I found some rough country dampers for $39, but wonder how much of a difference it would make if any? I can imagine that a hydraulic assist would work wonders though.

how much would putting a new 4runner steering box (the one it already has) and new damper help?

How can I tighten the steering wheel itself (its loose and takes a while to catch even when turned off)? bebe said the looseness and extra play is from a damaged steering box.

Is the pitman arm supposed to sit flush onto the steering box...I'm seeing it isn't placed all the way up onto the box and there's a gap, should I tap it all the way up?

 

[MaxPF]

haha I don't even know what hydro assist is. From looking it up I'm seeing kits costing >$1,000 ....yikes! I also found this http://eastcoastgearsupply.com/i-134349-hydraulic-assist-steering-kit.html

I hope this is more of a realistic price ^^^ Bad thing is it requires welding...I can weld great, or at least qualified for competition in highschool but it's been forever since I've touched a welder. I found some rough country dampers for $39, but wonder how much of a difference it would make if any? I can imagine that a hydraulic assist would work wonders though.

I prefer PSC. Since you need a new box anyway, and hydro assist requires a tapped box, then you could run their Toyota kit A big thing with hydro assist when you are running large tires is that it takes a lot of load off the steering box. Since it also dampens the steering a separate damper isn't required.

how much would putting a new 4runner steering box (the one it already has) and new damper help?

How can I tighten the steering wheel itself (its loose and takes a while to catch even when turned off)? bebe said the looseness and extra play is from a damaged steering box.

Most likely she is correct. You lose the sector shaft bushing/bearing, or the preload on the sector shaft, and it gets really sloppy. The box in my truck currently has the same issues. I have a fresh box waiting to go in when I swap front axles.... after I tap it for hydro assist

Is the pitman arm supposed to sit flush onto the steering box...I'm seeing it isn't placed all the way up onto the box and there's a gap, should I tap it all the way up?

No. The sector shaft is splined and tapered, so the pitman arm will only go on so far.

Keep in mind that the recommendations I am making simply follow good, common, well established practice. If you look at Recon's build thread you will see that he has ditched the Heims on his steering system and went to tie rod ends. He also runs hydro assist. Not sure what kind of box his conversion uses, but the Toy box should be adequate...

 

[deserth3]

You mentioned you can move the steering wheel when the truck is sitting. Have you checked the rag joint? Used to become a problem on the old s-10 Blazers. I'm not sure if the H3 has one. It's should be where the steering shaft enters the geer box and is probubly hidden under a plastic cover.

 

[07Custom]

You mentioned you can move the steering wheel when the truck is sitting. Have you checked the rag joint? Used to become a problem on the old s-10 Blazers. I'm not sure if the H3 has one. It's should be where the steering shaft enters the geer box and is probubly hidden under a plastic cover.

I have not checked the rag joint. I don't know if my truck has one, but I will look into it right now and go look now. Am I looking for looseness in the area?

 

[MaxPF]

I saw no rag joints in the pic. It looks like all the joints are small steering u-joints. Doesn't hurt to check them.

 

[4speedfunk]

Timing on this conversation couldn't be better. I'm in the midst of a SAS using the same basic axle. I think I've got the Dana 44 ABS thing figured out but, like anything electronic...I won't know for sure until I fire it up and go for a drive. I was able to add ABS reluctor rings, and stock sensors to an old school Dana 44. This required quite a bit of thinking outside the box and some minor fabrication & machining. If it all works, 07custom should be able to add a similar set-up without too much time or $$. I'll send some pics later today.

Scarey stuff about your steering. Looking at your pictures...I see several items that cause me concern, and I think others have pointed them out already. The good thing is that the SA is in there and it works. Images of this H3 have been the topic of discussion around here for well over a year before you got ahold of it. Glad you're posting and sharing all this info. I think a simple "freshening up" of your front suspension would do wonders and only cost $1500 or so. I'm not sure what those knuckles are...but I would grab some stock GM flat-tops, add some high-steer arms, move the shocks to the axle tubes, replace the box, and see where you're at. This would get you up to snuff with the typical Jeep-Yota-GM-Ford rig and get you a proven, reliable, and safe truck. Yeah, its some work but, you could do all this without pulling the axle completely or paying enormous shop rates. Welder, beer, Saturday afternoon stuff.

No rag joint on the H3.

 

[ReconH3]

FWIW I wouldn't waste the $70-$100 that it costs for a damper. I'd rather put the money toward a hydro assist setup. But thats just my preference

I second that. When I only had the steering box, it was not enough to handle the weight of the H3. Ram assist is nearly a must. I'm running the PSC setup.




"Ex Umbris Venimus"

Sent from my iPhone

 

[deserth3]

No rag joint on the H3.

Thanks. I just got around to checking the service manual. That's one thing GM got right.

 

[MaxPF]

I second that. When I only had the steering box, it was not enough to handle the weight of the H3. Ram assist is nearly a must. I'm running the PSC setup.

What steering box are you using? My full-size Saginaw box has no issues twirling around 37's. The only time more grunt would be nice is when a tire is wedged against a rock. Main thing I don't like is the stress put on the sector shaft and it's bearing. I'm pretty sure thats why mine is all loose after only 3 years. Hydro will generally put a stop to that

 

[ReconH3]

It's a PSC JK steering box. Not the wisest choice but ORE seemed convinced it was the best. I would have gone your route. With the ram assist it seems to be ok.


"Ex Umbris Venimus"

Sent from my iPhone

 

[4speedfunk]

That white H3 has an early Bronco box right?

 

[07Custom]

That white H3 has an early Bronco box right?

I think it's from a 86-89 toyota 4runner

 

[4speedfunk]

Okay 07Custom...finally got some pics of my Dana44 hub mods.

First is a test fit of my custom caliper mounts. I drew these up on CAD and had them laser-cut from 1/4" steel. They basically have the Dana 44 spindle bolt pattern, but with the ears for a H3 caliper. The holes for the caliper have not been drilled in this photo. You can also see the ABS ring mounted to the backside of the stock GM hub. The wheel studs are 12mm and very similar to stock GM studs. Its important to note that the H3 rotors will be slipping-on OVER the studs, unlike most D44 rotors that are pressed-on to the backside. Not only does this make future brake jobs much easier, it also gives me much needed room on the backside for the ring and sensor, compared to the stock Dana 44 rotors...
View attachment 3378

Next I fabbed some ABS sensor mounts from 1/2" scrap I had laying around. I tacked these in place on the brackets so the tip of the sensors are .050" off the rings. I arrived at this dimension by measuring the depth of the sensor hole in the H3's REAR axle minus the length of the sensor body (the part that protrudes into the hole). We'll see if it works...
View attachment 3379

Then during a test fit I realized that the spindle studs were a tad long, and dangerously close the reluctor rings...so I hit em with a grinder and dressed the ends of em with a hand file...
View attachment 3380

Next I welded some shims to the bracket ears to center the caliper on the H3 rotor. In a production scenario...an offset would be formed into the bracket itself...but, these are one-off experimental thingys so I went the quick route. After welding...I drilled & tapped some caliper mounting holes in the ears. BTW...the knuckles you see here are not Reiders...they are stock GM flat-tops, machined for high-steer arms. The stock tie-rod arms have been cut off. Here's a shot of the whole thing assembled, (apologies for the darkness)...
View attachment 3381

The hubs are stock GM 6-lug units. I had to do some machining on a lathe to get the reluctor rings on, and also to get the rotors to fit. Pretty minor stuff. These are early (1973) small-bearing hubs & spindles but, I don't see any reason you couldn't do the same with the large bearing (and more common) hubs that most D44's came with...
View attachment 3382

The end result is a Dana 44 solid axle with H3 4-piston calipers, rotors, and ABS/TCS ability. Very cheap. Very simple. Very available...and it uses all over-the-counter parts....
View attachment 3383

But don't count your chickens just yet...this has not been tested. I'm 99% sure this will work. I'll let you know later this spring. You could do something similar to your Dana and probably get all those dash-lights to go off.

 

[MaxPF]

It's a PSC JK steering box. Not the wisest choice but ORE seemed convinced it was the best. I would have gone your route. With the ram assist it seems to be ok.

Their use of the JK box likely had to do with the amount of sector shaft drop from the rest of the box. That looks to be the reason why the person who did 07's SAS used the Toyota box. Like you said though, hydro-assist makes it a moot issue since it relieves the box of most of the steering load.

Okay 07Custom...finally got some pics of my Dana44 hub mods....

But don't count your chickens just yet...this has not been tested. I'm 99% sure this will work. I'll let you know later this spring. You could do something similar to your Dana and probably get all those dash-lights to go off.

Looks just like other ABS/TCS setups I have seen on SAS'd trucks. It should work just fine :thumbs:

 

[07Custom]

Dang. That's all I can say. That was really informative and I thank you a lot. I'm sure this type of fabrication comes quite easy to you, but I have to say...just the idea scares me. I'm sure it's easier than I think it is, but wow that looks like some pretty intricate stuff. I would definitely love to have all the stock parts working (ABS, TC) but wouldn't have the faintest idea where to start. I really wish I had a good friend who was knowledgeable or one of you guys around me because I would jump all over this stuff asap! Just out of curiosity, how much would a fab like this cost if I went the cheaper route by finding parts and doing it myself? If not super expensive, I'm going to need to look into this. It can't hurt to start learning how to work on the beast, after all it's going to be around for a while.

Also in changing up things suck as the knuckles, would this also work towards getting the steering corrected in the way you guys have been describing?