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Torsion key lift of torque torsion bars??

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JUPITERH3T

Active Member
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29
Location
Jupiter, FL
I have a 2009 H3T Lux with 27000 miles on it. I'll be replacing tires in the next 12 mos with a larger 33-35" tire. Most of my driving is highway with an occasional trail ride or romp in Corbet park to play in the mud/water. I'm looking to level/raise the front end without sacraficing my ride. Am I better off replacing the the torsion keys with a 2" Ready Lift or Daystar Lift (reindexting the torsion bars) or just torque the existing bars???
 

Pappibri

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,611
Location
Cohoctah, MI
I leveled my H3 and I think my ride is actually better... It does not roll in turns, still very tight, and I did not need to add bumpstops. If you look at my build thread, you can see how it looks before and after.. The front end does not seem to dive anymore then it did before I leveled it either.. Worth it to me... Also look at Mutaint's thread.. He just put the Daystar 1 inch body lift on his Red Roc T... Plus I think in there he talks about the size tire you can get away with putting on without and with the lift... good luck...
 

hummech

Well-Known Member
Messages
123
Location
huntington beach ca.
hello Jupiterh3t,
i have had the best results with changing the torsion keys. i have seen a few stock H3's come through here with broken torsion bars that customers would level thier vehicles, and use them off road. also the ride will be more bouncey and you have the chance of waring tires. when you use the keys, it lifts the body without preloading the torsion bars which will let them load up as intended and the shocks work best with them at a stock setting. Pappibri does bring up a good point about tire size, the keys work best with close to stock tires, any bigger then you will need to do a lift kit.

mike s.
 
M

MUTAINT

Guest
hello Jupiterh3t,
i have had the best results with changing the torsion keys. i have seen a few stock H3's come through here with broken torsion bars that customers would level thier vehicles, and use them off road. also the ride will be more bouncey and you have the chance of waring tires. when you use the keys, it lifts the body without preloading the torsion bars which will let them load up as intended and the shocks work best with them at a stock setting. Pappibri does bring up a good point about tire size, the keys work best with close to stock tires, any bigger then you will need to do a lift kit.

mike s.

"broken torsion bars"? Would love to see pix of that, "best results with changing the keys" because you make $ on the poor sap chaning the keys!

:huh:
 
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MUTAINT

Guest
hello Jupiterh3t,
i have had the best results with changing the torsion keys. i have seen a few stock H3's come through here with broken torsion bars that customers would level thier vehicles, and use them off road. also the ride will be more bouncey and you have the chance of waring tires. when you use the keys, it lifts the body without preloading the torsion bars which will let them load up as intended and the shocks work best with them at a stock setting. Pappibri does bring up a good point about tire size, the keys work best with close to stock tires, any bigger then you will need to do a lift kit.

mike s.

Alright lets break down this BS form Mike S.:

"i have had the best results with changing the torsion keys" - Mike gets paid to replace they keys?

"i have seen a few stock H3's come through here with broken torsion bars that customers would level thier vehicles, and use them off road" - Would LOVE to see the pix of a "broken" torsion bar on a torsion bar lifted H3 or H3T! I have NEVER heard nor seen a broken torsion bar due to a torsion bar lift let alone OffRoad use. Anyone else besides Mike here heard or seen one???

"also the ride will be more bouncey" - This is the only true statement so far, and only IF you go over the recommended 23 1/4" (from wheel hub center to fender lip).

"and you have the chance of waring tires." - If you follow the recomendations of getting an alignment AFTER you adjust the ride height with a torsion bar lift you should have no issues with premature "wearing" of your tires.

"when you use the keys, it lifts the body without preloading the torsion bars which will let them load up as intended" - NOPE, by turning the torsion bar adjustment bolts you are NOT "lifting the body" you are adjusting the suspension which gives you lift. See the next post to see why his "preloading" myth is just that, A MYTH!

"shocks work best with them at a stock setting" - Hey the second thing he posted that is kind of true. Depeding on the amount of "lift" you are adjusted for the OEM shocks will still be within their normal safe operating range of extension and compression.

"good point about tire size, the keys work best with close to stock tires, any bigger then you will need to do a lift kit." - WTF are you talking about! I don't know where to start with this one. Pretty much everyone who has owned an H3/H3T for more than a week knows that a 315/75/R16 or 35" tire on a 16" rim will fit without a torsion bar lift let alone a "lift kit"! Yes, you MAY have a slight "rub" on the front sway bar.
 
M

MUTAINT

Guest
Mike S. Please read the below information and see if it makes sense to you.


"GM Torsion Bar 401

By Stephen Bradley (Dark Eternal)




To start out with, lets first discuss what a torsion bar is. A torsion bar is a type of spring, just like a coil spring or leaf spring. To be exact it is a type of rotary spring. A spring can be defined to be an elastic member which exerts a resisting force when its shape is changed due to an applied force and returns to its original shape when the force is let off. There are many different classes of springs, but I will only discuss a few that are relevant to us. The first is the most common, a linear spring. A linear spring requires the same amount of force all the way through its range of compression. The next class is a step linear. A step linear requires different forces at different positions of compression through the range, requiring more force the more you compress the spring but in steps. This means it might be easy to compress for half of the compression range and then very hard for the second half. The last class is the progressive spring. It is similar to the step linear but instead of being in steps and having a set number of different amounts of force required to compress the spring, it is progressive. This means that every little amount you compress the spring its gets harder. There are no steps, but instead it is a constant rate at which the force needed to compress the spring increases.

To define how a torsion bar works we can compare it to other springs. A coil spring uses compression and extension and depending on the design of the spring can be a linear, step linear, or a progressive rate spring. A leaf spring uses flex and is a progressive spring. The torsion bar on the other hand uses resistance to torque and is a linear spring. A torsion bar is essentially a steel bar with some form of splines on each end. On our GM torsion bars it’s not the type of splines you are used to, like what you would find on an axle shaft, but instead a hexagonal head, similar to a bolt head. In fact you can slide a socket over it if you have a big enough one. Now when one side is fixed to an immovable object and the other is twisted, torque is applied. The torsion bar resists this torque and like any other spring it returns to its original position when the torque is let off. Now let’s apply this to our trucks. The immovable object is going to be our frame, or rather the torsion bar cross member on our frame where the torsion bars are anchored. The other end is connected to the lower control arm (LCA). The LCA pivots on a fixed point on the frame and creates twisting motion on the torsion bar – the torque needed to make it a spring. For example, when the vehicles front suspension compresses, the LCAs move upwards and exert force onto the torsion bars, so they push back onto the LCAs, just like a coil or leaf would.

Now that you have a basic idea of how a torsion bar works lets discuss why it is what GM chose for our 4wd suspension. One answer is that it is cheap and maintenance free. Some torsion bars do use bushings that need greasing on other vehicles but GMs do not. Second, they are out of the way. A leaf spring can’t be used on IFS and a coil is in the way of the half shaft used to transmit power to your wheel in the front. The torsion bar is totally out of the way. Finally, it is adjustable. The fixed end of the torsion bar that is anchored in the torsion bar cross member is anchored into a “key” which can be turned with an adjusting bolt, therefore effecting the resting position of the LCAs and the height of the front of your vehicle. Sounds like the perfect suspension doesn’t it? Not quite. The fact that torsion bars are a linear spring effect the ride quality in a negative manner. Luckily, with modern technology and the advanced design of independent front suspension (IFS) ride is still going to be far superior to that of a progressive leaf spring and a solid front axle. Also, you may notice that the LCA on the GM IFS seems to be resting on its upper bump stop. This is not only a bump stop, but what is called a progressive dampner. It compresses at a progressive rate, simulating a progressive rate spring, and letting the torsion bars achieve close to a progressive feel. Another con is as you increase the ride height by adjusting your keys, the ride gets worse. Now it’s a common misconception that there is more of a load on the bar and this is the cause. That is impossible since the LCA moves as well, so there is no more torsion on the bar than before, the spring rate does not actually change like many belive. The twisting action does not change the pre-load on the bar directly, so cranking your bars is just like adding a block in the rear or a coil spacer. It is simply changing the position of the spring. Just to clear things up, pre-load is the amount by which the torsion bar can't return to its original (unloaded) position due to be installed in the truck. The reason for the bad ride quality is instead a combination of things. First of all, when you adjust the height up, the angle between your LCA and the ground is increased which effectively does reduce your pre-load by reducing the leverage your LCAs have on your torsion bars. This negativly effects the ride by taking the torsion bars out of the preload range they were designed to work in. In combination with that, if you crank too far your UCAs have very little room left between them and the lower bump stops, reducing downward travel. You also pull the LCA away from the progressive dampner, making it ineffective and putting yourself back into the position of having a linear spring. These are the reasons the ride gets worse! One last disadvantage is that like all other springs, torsion bars will wear out over time causing your front end to sag. The more weight on the front of your vehicle, the faster they will wear. Also, the more your suspension travels the faster they wear."
http://www.gmfullsize.com/tech/torsion401.html



"How it all works

Torsion Bars
A lot of the same principles used in coil sprung suspensions are transferable to torsion bar sprung suspensions. For this reason I will not go too in depth into the explanation of how tbars work.

"Cranking" the torsion bars involves rotating the anchor point of the tbars to provide lift to the truck. Fundamentally, this is the same as using a spacer in a coil suspension. Just like a spacer in a coil spring, cranking the tbars does not add preload, nor does it raise the spring rate. Remember, the only practical way to add preload is to add weight to the truck and the only way to change the spring rate is by changing the geometric and material properties of the tbar.

Since cranking the tbars does not change the spring rate, why do people say cranking the tbars makes the ride stiff? Well, the perceived stiff ride comes from the change in angles of the control arms, just like the coil sprung suspension.


Summary

- Spacers do not change the spring rate

- Spacers do not add preload

- Spacers by themselves do not make the suspension stiffer, the geometry of the suspension does.

- Cranking the torsion bars does not change the spring rate

- Cranking the torsion bars does not increase preload.


This was a very basic look at how certain suspension systems work and how modifications can change the way the truck feels. Hopefully some of the common misconceptions floating around the internet were clarified.

Having said all this, there IS a way to increase the preload without adding weight. A coil spacer long enough or the torsion bars cranked enough to completely extend the suspension all the way to the bumpstops will start to increase the preload on the spring. Of course, this means the one would be riding around on the bumpstops all the time and that would make for a very rough ride.

Lastly, I would like to thank a few people for their help:

Chris (Pismoboy) BSME, Frank (elripster) BSME (pending), and Geoff (AdmDrayton) PhDMate (pending) for their technical advice on this subject. Bob (Bob_98SR5) MABus and Tom (mertzer) BSChem for their proof reading."

http://www.robinhood4x4.com/suspension2.htm

SORRY MIKE S. these are mechanical engineers and automotive suspension engineers above.



.
 

Pappibri

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,611
Location
Cohoctah, MI
Thanks for sharing that post Mutaint.. That's a very in depth explanation. Now I understand the set up alot better...
 

twinmill28

Spilled Milk
Messages
1,545
Location
El Centro, Mehico (Way So Cal)
Hey Mutaint---did Mike's reply hit a nerve by any chance? I can only envision you losing sleep over this one.
As for torsion bars, I ran with mine cranked at 23-1/2" and thought it rode ok after I cranked it and bolted on the Bilstein's. Then prior to selling it, I took off the 35" tires, cranked the t-bars down and took it for a ride. Quite a noticable difference; as in a much, much nicer noticeable difference. As in, I would have never cranked them if I'd have realized the ride would be that stiff.
So when I got the deuce, I did something unheard of---I left my suspension the hell alone. And I thoroughly enjoy the way it rides from the factory. Am I dying to level it and make it look "cool"? You bet. Do I enjoy the nicer ride of a stock truck? You bet.
 
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M22KLARS

Unsafe At Any Speed
Messages
2,315
Location
Minnesota
Yeah WTF is going on in here?! Jesus Christ Mutaint do you know of any tactful ways of communicating without sounding like a complete *******?

If it matters I personally know of a person with an H3 who did break a torsion bar while playing off road after leveling to what we would all consider safe. Does it happen often? No. Can it? Yes.
 
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MUTAINT

Guest
Hey Mutaint---did Mike's reply hit a nerve by any chance? I can only envision you losing sleep over this one.
As for torsion bars, I ran with mine cranked at 23-1/2" and thought it rode ok after I cranked it and bolted on the Bilstein's. Then prior to selling it, I took off the 35" tires, cranked the t-bars down and took it for a ride. Quite a noticable difference; as in a much, much nicer noticeable difference. As in, I would have never cranked them if I'd have realized the ride would be that stiff.
So when I got the deuce, I did something unheard of---I left my suspension the hell alone. And I thoroughly enjoy the way it rides from the factory. Am I dying to level it and make it look "cool"? You bet. Do I enjoy the nicer ride of a stock truck? You bet.

Hey Twin,
Nah, no lost sleep. Just wanted JupiterH3T to have the stright poop about the "keys" and save him/her Hundreds of $ that he/she could use toward an alignment or other mods.

I agree 100% with the better ride quality! Sure your rig rode better once you went back to the factory setting (as close as you could get it). I assume you read the explinations that stated once you raise the progressive dampeners off of the lower A-arm you are effectivley not using the suspension the way it was designed to be used 100%. Hence the reason why I decided to go with the 1" body lift this build (Mr. Red Roc'T) to gain the clearence for 37s but keep the factory torsion bar settings as close to "stock" as possible to maintain the great ride quality that the H3/H3Ts come with from the factory.
 
M

MUTAINT

Guest
If it matters I personally know of a person with an H3 who did break a torsion bar while playing off road after leveling to what we would all consider safe. Does it happen often? No. Can it? Yes.

Sure it matters. First time hearing about a torsion bar breaking while playing OffRoad after leveling from you. I'm sure anything can break when playing On or OffRoad. I have witnessed a rear diff (Dana 44) break the R&P on a Jeep in it's first 200 miles from the factory. Does it happen often? No. Can it? Sure. But that does not mean that it will happen with every rear Dana 44 equipped Jeep.

Question: Do you think that using the above mentioned "keys" would have made any difference with the broken torsion bar?
 

M22KLARS

Unsafe At Any Speed
Messages
2,315
Location
Minnesota
"broken torsion bars"? Would love to see pix of that, "best results with changing the keys" because you make $ on the poor sap chaning the keys!

:huh:

Sure it matters. First time hearing about a torsion bar breaking while playing OffRoad after leveling from you. I'm sure anything can break when playing On or OffRoad. I have witnessed a rear diff (Dana 44) break the R&P on a Jeep in it's first 200 miles from the factory. Does it happen often? No. Can it? Sure. But that does not mean that it will happen with every rear Dana 44 equipped Jeep.

Question: Do you think that using the above mentioned "keys" would have made any difference with the broken torsion bar?

Well Mark, to me, your initial post in this thread sounds like you think Mike is full of ****. You quote him then say that you would "love to see pix of that" insinuating that he's lying or that it cant' happen. Then once I bring it up you change your tune and say, "I'm sure anything can break when playing On or OffRoad."

You make some valid points on the matter but I wish you could do it without attacking other people and their opinions. That's what pisses me off.
 
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MUTAINT

Guest
M22, like I DID say above. I would love to see pix of that ... from anyone. Yes, I did respond to the post from Mike S. with virve due to the unfounded information about keys and such with information I have gathered from respected sources in this particular field of engineering.

Back to the OP:

JUPITERH3T, there are litterally 1000s of threads on GM torsion bar "adjustments" on here, other HUMMER forums and GM truck forums. If you have the time do a search and save yourself the cash to use toward an alignement and future HUMMER mods.
 

alrock

El Diablo
Staff member
Messages
10,674
Location
Scottsdale
Mutaint, you are certainly crossing a line with your posts. As I've consistently maintained it is appropriate to offer counter opinions on here but to attack an individual and/or his integrity is uncalled for. First, you state that Mike's post is BS which is your opinion, and not a fact. Second, you call into question his experience of seeing broken torsion bars. Third, you imply that Mike is posting solely to profit based on his posts which is a direct and specific attack in his integrity.

Mike S. was invited to participate in this forum in part because of his integrity, not despite it.

You offer some great opinions here for the reader to review and accept on his own; and you've offered great opinions in the past as well. But to present that in the manner that you did is uncalled for and will not be accepted.

Oddly, here you base your post on the writings of mechanical engineers vs. what has been observed in the real world yet in the past you've rejected those arguments from a mechanical engineer (F5) vs. what some have seen in the real world. Consistency in your arguments is not working in your favor in this instance.
 

xllkoyokollx

Active Member
Messages
29
Location
DFW, TX
M22,

HummMech is putting some pretty bad info on your forum from a very biased stand point. I think that's what set Mark off. He has always done his level best to ensure that there is solid and substantiated information on the forums for users who may need it. He may not be the most tactful man on the planet but his info is sound. I don't think Mike was necessarily lying when he said that he had seen a broken Tbar but it seemed exaggerative at best. Who is to say that it is 100% because of a Tbar crank. The Leveling guide here and on every other forum is tried and true and has withstood the test of time. Parts break some because of abuse and some because of a limitless list of other reasons. The people on this forum and others are the extreme minority that really wheel their hummers and this is the first that I have heard of a Tbar breaking and above that Mike say that he's seen it numerous times because of leveling and offroading. Mike stopped just short of saying you need a full on lift kit for anything larger than 33" tires...

Bad information is like a plague and as such should be dealt with vigilantly. The only way to fight it is with good information. Unfortunately it take a lot more good to outweigh the bad. Mu did an awesome job of doing that. His goal was to leave the OP well informed so he could make a good decision based on good information.
 

backcountryislife

Well-Known Member
Messages
858
Location
Dumont, CO
Mutaint, thanks for the solid reference post... nice to have something to refer people to when I can't get them to understand that changnig the clocking of a torsion spring doesn't change the preload. It also doesn't change the travel in theory, though in practice it will travel differently based on the change in starting point.


Good post!


Btw... in theory, as the clocking changed on the torsion bar, at full top bump you WOULD have more tension on the bar (spring) so you are technically stressing it more.

In reality, what are the odds of this happening? It's a spring, it's intended to be stressed, and a similar increase in stress/ load could be added by simply adding weight to the truck.
 
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M22KLARS

Unsafe At Any Speed
Messages
2,315
Location
Minnesota
M22,

HummMech is putting some pretty bad info on your forum from a very biased stand point. I think that's what set Mark off. He has always done his level best to ensure that there is solid and substantiated information on the forums for users who may need it. He may not be the most tactful man on the planet but his info is sound. I don't think Mike was necessarily lying when he said that he had seen a broken Tbar but it seemed exaggerative at best. Who is to say that it is 100% because of a Tbar crank. The Leveling guide here and on every other forum is tried and true and has withstood the test of time. Parts break some because of abuse and some because of a limitless list of other reasons. The people on this forum and others are the extreme minority that really wheel their hummers and this is the first that I have heard of a Tbar breaking and above that Mike say that he's seen it numerous times because of leveling and offroading. Mike stopped just short of saying you need a full on lift kit for anything larger than 33" tires...

Bad information is like a plague and as such should be dealt with vigilantly. The only way to fight it is with good information. Unfortunately it take a lot more good to outweigh the bad. Mu did an awesome job of doing that. His goal was to leave the OP well informed so he could make a good decision based on good information.

Who are you again?
 

JUPITERH3T

Active Member
Messages
29
Location
Jupiter, FL
Wow, my thread has stirred up some controversy!! lol Thanks to all for their oppinions. It sounds like I may just wind up compromising once I get my new tires by dialing up the torsion bars just a bit...not to thier max setting. Then I can gain a little xtra height and keep my good ride....what do you guys think??
 

Bigunit

Hammer Down!
Staff member
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6,561
Location
Arizona
M22,

I think that's what set Mark off. He has always done his level best to ensure that there is solid and substantiated information on the forums for users who may need it. He may not be the most tactful man on the planet but his info is sound...Bad information is like a plague and as such should be dealt with vigilantly. The only way to fight it is with good information. Unfortunately it take a lot more good to outweigh the bad.

x's & o's, who made you the ultimate arbiter on what's solid and substantiated information...if you were such the expert on deciphering facts from lies and misinformation, you wouldn't be a moderator, much less, a member on that other forum.


You claim to know the differene but yet you completely fail to see the point of M22's comments - on this forum, we don't treat each other the way you all do on your forum. It won't be tolerated here and if you or anyone else (yes, Mutaint I'm talkig to you) have a problem with that, then don't come back!
 

M22KLARS

Unsafe At Any Speed
Messages
2,315
Location
Minnesota
Wow, my thread has stirred up some controversy!! lol Thanks to all for their oppinions. It sounds like I may just wind up compromising once I get my new tires by dialing up the torsion bars just a bit...not to thier max setting. Then I can gain a little xtra height and keep my good ride....what do you guys think??

Jupiter, let me say that I'm sorry that your thread has gotten a little hijacked. My apologies.

I think it's pretty safe to say that you can crank your t-bars to level the truck out without worrying too much. I would say that including myself, 99% of us have our trucks set up that way.
 

xllkoyokollx

Active Member
Messages
29
Location
DFW, TX
x's & o's, who made you the ultimate arbiter on what's solid and substantiated information...if you were such the expert on deciphering facts from lies and misinformation, you wouldn't be a moderator, much less, a member on that other forum.


You claim to know the differene but yet you completely fail to see the point of M22's comments - on this forum, we don't treat each other the way you all do on your forum. It won't be tolerated here and if you or anyone else (yes, Mutaint I'm talkig to you) have a problem with that, then don't come back!

Big I got no hand in that fight and no beef with you so lets let that go right now. I have made my stance known with both the Admins here and there. It has nothing to do with this post. I did not support Mark speaking negatively about Mike only stated that I understood why he was taking issue with what Mike said. The information given by Mark is sound information.
 

backcountryislife

Well-Known Member
Messages
858
Location
Dumont, CO
Jupiter, let me say that I'm sorry that your thread has gotten a little hijacked. My apologies.

I think it's pretty safe to say that you can crank your t-bars to level the truck out without worrying too much. I would say that including myself, 99% of us have our trucks set up that way.


And there is a nice simple way of saying it.:)


As for a hijack, Mutaint may have been a little rude ( I get that this is not appropriate here... it's not pirate... ;), I'm a mod on a forum with similar values to here, so I can see where you guys are coming from) but seemed on topic to me, just with a little attitude :)
 
M

MUTAINT

Guest
Oddly, here you base your post on the writings of mechanical engineers vs. what has been observed in the real world yet in the past you've rejected those arguments from a mechanical engineer (F5) vs. what some have seen in the real world. Consistency in your arguments is not working in your favor in this instance.

Ahh, I knew you would be chiming in here. If my posts about the information Mike S. posted here went overboard it was only because he is known here as a HUMMER source of information. When "other" information directly contradicts his statements we as forum members are not allowed to question his information and or motives just because he has a forum section of his own?

F5 is a mechanical engineer?:huh: Never knew that about him.

PS: The mechanical engineers I quoted ARE "real world" GM IFS wheelers! Heck, one of them is a fourm member here. Sat and talked "shop" with him about the IFS systems in our rigs after wheeling.

I bet I get some "time out in the corner" time on this one. :emb:


PM Apoligy already sent to JupiterH3T for the hijacking.
 
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