Ring and Pinion help

[06 H3]

WTF!!! I just put in diff fluid and its pouring out the pinion seal!!!!!! IS THIS A ****IN JOKE!?!?!?!

 

[Bigunit]

Who is a this guy and why did you go to him? We can at least help and others from sending him more business. Who recommended this charlatan?

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[06 H3]

This guy is Dean from Performance Cryogenics. He was recommended by bebe and he made some parts for her H3 IFS build. I went to him because I was told he can make my H3 diff the strongest possible diff without moving to another axle (i.e. solid axle swap or custom IFS.) This thing turned into a mess...The diff is in and halfshafts, skids are dropped and tomorrow I pick up a new pinion seal and fluid on his cost. Hes calling the part store and paying for them.

Even though hes paying for the parts I am still pist, I lost 3 precious months of wheeling, tons of frustration and I could of set it up myself. I will be replacing the pinion seal but seeing a bad seal would be a dripping leak not pouring out the back end. I think its something worse then a pinion seal but we will see.

Locker: I will wire it all up and try to see if it engages, when I bought it from Zach the Eaton E locker was all intact and fine, he shipped it to dean and then he installed the locker and I get the diff and it isnt working. I may have to order a new stator for the e locker.

I just found a shop near my house (30 miles away) that cryo treats gears. If anyone want to cryo them for more strength I can personally drop them off and personally pick them up to avoid the bull**** I went through and then you have a local shop install them or do it yourself.

 

[RamRod]

****ty break bro!

Hope things start working out for you soon!


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[06 H3]

and I want to clarify this, I appreciate Bebe giving me the recommendation, she went out of her way to help me find simple ways to strengthen my diff which was very nice of her. She has had success with him and its unfortunate I did not. I am not pist at her, only Dean and the situation

Supposedly cryoing strengthens the gears and is done by people with the machines, dean has the machine to cryo most do not. I found a local shop who can do it. What I have done is cryo treated gears, low backlash to help when the R&P deflect and a crush sleeve eliminator. I also was making a diff cover girdle to with load bolts to prevent deflection but didnt finish it when my diff came so I just threw on the stock cover in an attempt to get 4wd back as fast as possible but now I guess it doesnt matter.

 

[Bigunit]

Somebody other than you needs to step-up and call Dean and "suggest" that he needs to step-up and make things right as his "rep" is on the line and needs to subscribe to the old business adage that "the customer is always right" - no BS and no excuses. I'll tell you this - Dean and his sub-standard work and customer service won't be getting any of my business anytime soon or ever!

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[06 H3]

The guys on pirate seem to love him. He is a very talented guy, He made bebe's stub shafts and also made his own transfer case, that takes some mad skills. Its just his business practices need improvement and the small things need attention like a damn pinion seal! Squeaky has not hit dirt since september 27th 2013, its now January 6th 2014. I pulled the front driveshaft and put it in 4hi lock and been in 2wd since. Im twitching like an addict who hasnt had his fix. I just wanna go wheeling!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bigunit]

For what it's worth, the people on Pirate are full of themselves and IMO really haven't contributed much to the survival of the human race. 4x4 gear heads and wrench monkeys have a purpose in life but it's a very small purpose and seem to come and go. Don't lose your passion Chris and keep on truckin'.

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[MaxPF]

Supposedly cryoing strengthens the gears and is done by people with the machines, dean has the machine to cryo most do not.

Cryoing has become something of a snake oil treatment in the off-road world. None of the people who sell it understand what it actually does. Nor do they understand that it does NOTHING for certain steels, while the steels which are affected by cryo treatment often need a following tempering step, which is almost never done by "aftermarket cryotreaters". Worse yet, in the case of your gears, it was almost certainly done by the manufacturer, which means an additional treatment is a waste of money.. Cryoing is not done by a "machine" - it is a simple cryogenic bath. Depending on the alloy and other factors the temp can range from -100F (easily reached with a bath of dry ice and acetone or alcohol) to below -300F (liquid nitrogen). No fancy equipment is needed, just ACCURATE knowledge.

 

[06 H3]

Thanks for the input. I briefly read a quick synopsis of how it works months ago and obviously was off base.

I wasn't sure if it was total fluff or not. I still don't know...he mentioned to me he used Sierra gear which uses a higher nickel content or some **** and that works better with the process. Again it could be true or not, I'm no genius when it comes to metal reacting with cold temps.

For 100-150 bucks I figured why the hell not and it ended up being cheaper then that. IIRC it was 80. I've broken 2 pinions so I thought what's the worst that can happen. I can go out and blow this thing tomorrow, I can get 2 years out of it like I did on the last one or get 5 years out of it, at the end of the day one thing remains the same, a 7.6in ring gear shouldn't be under a 5000+ lb truck.

My question though is this...your on pirate why do some guys swear by this process saying they were blowing R&Ps left and right and now their not?

 

[06 H3]

update: Pulled the yoke, no pinion seal! That explains the POURING out of diff fluid.

Also I now know why my yoke wouldnt accept the u joint. The yoke was scarred and the metal protruding out wont let the u joint cap sit in the yoke. I will grind it protrusion to see if it fits if not Zach said he will get me a new yoke.

Lastly, I am kinda scared to drive it. Seeing all these problems arose before the initial drive I think I will offer kyle 20 bucks to do the test drive, I will even be nice enough to pull the air bag fuse and give him a helmet.

 

[poncho1965]

You've had terrible luck Chris ! So your test drive will turn out fine!


Mike

 

[4speedfunk]

Wow. Ring & pinions are complex machines but, they're not rocket science. The set-up takes some know-how, patience, and a few special tools. But the issues you're describing have nothing to do with set-up...and more to do with common sense. Sounds like a caveman assembled it.

 

[06 H3]

I am far from a mastermind mechanic and just setup a front and rear axle regear and locker with my buddy in his jeep YJ. We didnt have our other buddy who went to school for mechanics and both of us are trial and error driveway mechanics and after the regear and locker he has been driving the jeep with no issues. I was so proud we did it successfully!

I regret not this myself. I have done 3-4 axles and had one issue with one but fixed it and learned a lesson. Everytime I crack open a new part of this AAM7 a new problem arises.

 

[06 H3]

I now have to wait for my pinion seal to get in around 4:30 my time. So I have 4 hours to spare, I may start wiring up my rigid lights and wiring and may start making brackets for my rear LED lights.

 

[amrg]

Im sad to see how something you've been waiting for turned out to give so much trouble, esp whens its been this long! I had my truck down for a week and I was banging my head here and there, can't imagine being like this for 3 months!

 

[06 H3]

My pinion seal is finally ready to pick up! During the wait I wired up my lights and my locker fixed the yoke by gently grinding the protrusions down checked to make sure it fits which it does and dissembled everything picking it up now!! Hope it's ready to go soon

 

[RamRod]

Good luck bud! Sound like you could use some!


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[06 H3]

Just test drove it all is well so far in 4wd. Ill elaborate more tomorrow

 

[Bigunit]

Yep, good luck Chris. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and hoping this ends well for you and Squeaky.

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[06 H3]

I drove it about 10 miles yesterday. All was well. I know have narrowed down the problem with the locker. Every time I engage it the fuse blows...now its time to look for shorts in the harness. Last I checked the wiring was still intact with the stator.

Atleast its driving in 4x4 now...I plan on taking it for some local wheeling tonight after work or tomorrow because I am off. Right now I dont trust this diff. I need to gain some trust on it before I start venturing out onto trails further from home.

 

[06 H3]

Last night after the initial 10 mile drive I had no issues on the way to work (21 miles including freeway) I had diff fluid all over the undercarriage. Something wasn't installed right. I think I'm gonna go complain on pirate seeing I know he's on there and see what he has to say in terms of defending himself. He still owes me 50 bucks for the diff fluid and seal that he needs to PayPal me

 

[MaxPF]

Thanks for the input. I briefly read a quick synopsis of how it works months ago and obviously was off base.

There are "machines" which automate the process. I'm guessing that is what you meant by cryo "machine"? As for how it works metallurgically, it converts retained austenite into martensite. "Retained" austenite is austenite that was not converted to martensite during the quench process. Austenite is soft and not very strong. Martensite is hard and strong, but also very brittle and has considerable internal stress. This is why it needs to be tempered - the martensite needs to be converted to sorbite (or troosite), which although not as hard or strong is MUCH more ductile and has greater toughness and less notch sensitivity. Some alloys are double or even triple tempered after cryo treatment (or after heat treatment, where cryo treatment is not necessary or useful).

For case hardened steels like your gears, cryo treatment only affects the high carbon case (a layer about 1/32nd inch thick on the surface of the part). The bulk of the material has little response due to it's low carbon (and this austenite) content. Some steels don't retain hardly any austenite, and are unaffected by cryo treatment. This is a big problem in the off road world - folks think it makes ANY part stronger.

I wasn't sure if it was total fluff or not. I still don't know...he mentioned to me he used Sierra gear which uses a higher nickel content or some **** and that works better with the process. Again it could be true or not, I'm no genius when it comes to metal reacting with cold temps.

The only way for Sierra gears to have higher nickel is if they were made out of, say, 9310. Higher nickel carburizing steels are more expensive and requie longer heat treat cycle times, which means the end product is more expensive. Judging by the price of Sierra's, I would be surprised if this were the case. Not saying it isn't possible - AFAIK Sierra is a reboxer like Yukon. The gears are made by actual manufacturers, often offshore.

For 100-150 bucks I figured why the hell not and it ended up being cheaper then that. IIRC it was 80. I've broken 2 pinions so I thought what's the worst that can happen. I can go out and blow this thing tomorrow, I can get 2 years out of it like I did on the last one or get 5 years out of it, at the end of the day one thing remains the same, a 7.6in ring gear shouldn't be under a 5000+ lb truck.

I agree. It is well known that the simplest way to make a ring and pinion (or axle shafts, or pretty much anything else) stronger is to make them bigger.

My question though is this...your on pirate why do some guys swear by this process saying they were blowing R&Ps left and right and now their not?

Two possibilities: Either it is confirmation bias, or the cryo treatment actually worked. A gear manufacturer doesn't have to cryo treat a set of gears, and not doing so saves money. Ever wonder why a set of Sierra or Yukon gears are $250 and a set of AAM or Spicer gears are $600+? Price depends on where they are made, how they are made, and what they are made of. If a set of gears was not cryo treated during manufacture than a cryo treatment could indeed be beneficial. So, is it the cryo treatment? Did they set the cryo treated gears up a bit differently? Or have they simply not beat on the cryo treated gears as hard/long as the broken ones? Without scientific testing there is no way to know.

 

[06 H3]

jesus, your so knowledgable. lol

Well driving home I had vibrations and its not driving right. With a ****ed up locker, vibrations and seeing all the other **** the axle comes out tomorrow and I will be rebuilding it myself. I now want my money back...I wish I paid with American Express. Lesson learned.

 

[4speedfunk]

Vibrating and leaking after 40 miles? Probably not much left to rebuild.