heavy duty solid axle swap idea

[High Five H2]

Here's my idea: Use the transfer case from an H2 and the AAM 925 from a 03+ dodge HD truck. In the rear, use an H2 axle. You could go just about a big as you want with tires have real full size axles with the bigger brakes and 8 lug wheels and stuff.

Any thoughts on this idea? I think the hardest part would be rearranging the fuel lines and exhaust, but other than that, I think it would work out very nicely.

 

[MaxPF]

Just a couple observations: H2 rear axles are difficult to source and expensive, and they are a 9.5" semi-floater. 10.5" disk-brake full floaters out of 2000-2009 3/4 and 1 ton 6.0 gas trucks are plentiful, stronger, and cheaper. If speed sensors are needed for each wheel it wouldn't be difficult to machine the hubs to accep an external tone ring and sensor. I've seen it done on an axle for a swap into a JK.

Also, why use the 03-up AAM axle? Does it already have the wheel sensors or something? 94-02 Dodges used a driver drop, ball-joint and unit bearing Dana 60. Of, of course, you can run an earlier GM or Dodge kingpin 60, which are passenger drop. That way no t-case swap is needed, and you don't have to deal with rearranging fuel lines and exhaust.

 

[cgalpha08]

It would be really wide no? Also I'm not sure how big the H2 transfer case is but stuffing it up there might be an issue? Just a thought

 

[High Five H2]

I thought about using the 10.5 inch full floaters, but they hang down really low. i suppose a shave would fix that though. the H2 axles do come with lockers, that may be why they're more expensive. I don't know if the 10.5 in ones do. I remember reading somewhere that it's hard to find lockers for 10.5 in axles, but they do make them for 11.5 in axles. Now, I live in the middle of nowhere so it's harder to find axles. there are 2 H2 axles within about 350 miles of me, and they're both going for about $1000. it's not pocket change, I know, but for a decent axle with a locker that's not too bad. If I could find a 11.5 or 10.5 with disc brakes closer and put a locker in it for cheaper then I'd definitely do that. the aftermarket is also way better for those 2.

any more info on those kingpin 60s? Any advantage to using kingpin axles compared to ball joints? I thought kingpins were not as good, and that's why they quit making them.

i don't think it's that hard to make an axle less wide. pricey, maybe. have a machine shop cut down the tubes and the axle shafts and then respline it. is there more to it than I'm missing?

AAM uses all the same sensors. that's the only reason that I was thinking to use them. If there was a better front axle I'd go with it.

thanks for the input

 

[USMC_TOP]

I know you can take an an old Corp 14 bolt full floter, get the caliper bracket plate made or buy it then you use a 1990 Ford 2 wheel drive front rotor and bearings and calipers and you'll have disk breaks on an old bullet proof 14 bolt. I believe when I built my mud truck years ago my front and rear axles were 1979's Dana 60 with kingpins in the front. The break setup stoped my 38 Boggers on a dime.

 

[MaxPF]

It would be really wide no? Also I'm not sure how big the H2 transfer case is but stuffing it up there might be an issue? Just a thought

Bebe said her H3 rear axle is nearly 70" WMS-WMS, so it shouldn't be any wider.

 

[MaxPF]

I thought about using the 10.5 inch full floaters, but they hang down really low. i suppose a shave would fix that though.

Yup, gotta shave it. You can take 3/4-1" off the bottom really easy with just a sawzall. You don't even have to remove the tin cover. That takes care of it hanging any lower than a 9.5" axle.

the H2 axles do come with lockers, that may be why they're more expensive. I don't know if the 10.5 in ones do.

The only factory locker in the 10.5 is the G80 gov-lock (aka gov-bomb).

I remember reading somewhere that it's hard to find lockers for 10.5 in axles, but they do make them for 11.5 in axles.

They're easy to find. The 10.5 and 11.5 have the same locker options: Detroit or ARB.

Now, I live in the middle of nowhere so it's harder to find axles. there are 2 H2 axles within about 350 miles of me, and they're both going for about $1000. it's not pocket change, I know, but for a decent axle with a locker that's not too bad. If I could find a 11.5 or 10.5 with disc brakes closer and put a locker in it for cheaper then I'd definitely do that. the aftermarket is also way better for those 2.

2000-2009 10.5's with factory disk brakes should be very easy to find. Every 3/4 and 1 ton GM 6.0L gas truck came with one.

any more info on those kingpin 60s? Any advantage to using kingpin axles compared to ball joints? I thought kingpins were not as good, and that's why they quit making them.

I mentioned the kingpin axles because all 91-earlier GM 60's and 93-earlier Dodge 60's are kingpin axles, but more importantly for an H3 they are right hand (passenger) drop.

Kingpins are superior to ball joints. The OE's went to ball joints because they're cheaper to manufacture. That's also why they went to unit bearings. Kingpins hold up far better to big tires and heavy trucks, as do the old-style hub and spindle arrangement. Not to mention the ease of doing high steer and running larger stub shafts on a kingpin 60. About the only downside of the Chevy and Dodge kingpin 60s are the H-E-A-V-Y old-school Bendix brake calipers and brackets. They are strong and work well, but they probably add 20lbs to the axle. Also, wheelers with big (like 42"+ big) tires sometimes have issues with the nylon upper bushing in the kingpin 60s, but plenty of places sell bronze upgrades that eliminates the issue. For a part-time wheeler with 40" or smaller tires I'd probably stick with the stock nylon bushing. They self-adjust, and if you ever do have to replace them they're easy to do. WAY easier than replacing balljoints! And way, WAY cheaper!

That said, a BJ 60 (or Dodge AAM BJ axle) would be fine on an H3, even with 40" tires. HECK, it would be fine on my truck with 40" tires. Biggest issue is that they are all left hand (driver) drop, which as you know means a different t-case, redoing exhaust, etc.

EDIT: I forgot that the 94-02 Dodge front 60's are CAD units and are only 30-32 spline. So, unless you are willing to swap in 35 spline shafts (and eliminate the CAD in the process) you may be better off with the AAM axle, which is 33 spline with no CAD.

You may also want to check out the Ford front 60's, although beware that at some point the Superdutys went to 8x170mm wheel bolt pattrens. This is also why you would not want a 2011-later GM full-float rear axle - they went to 8x180mm lug pattern.

i don't think it's that hard to make an axle less wide. pricey, maybe. have a machine shop cut down the tubes and the axle shafts and then respline it. is there more to it than I'm missing?

Judging by all the D44 SAS's I don't think the width is an issue. I'm not sure how wide the Dodge AAM axle is, but the old GM 60's are 69.5" WMS-WMS, and the old Dodge 60's are 67.5" WMS-WMS. I doubt a SRW AAM axle is wider than 70". I could be wrong though

AAM uses all the same sensors. that's the only reason that I was thinking to use them. If there was a better front axle I'd go with it.

thanks for the input

If the Dodge AAM axle has compatible wheel sensors that would simplify that aspect of a swap. The question is whether it is esier to add speed sensors to a pass. drop 60, or whether it is easier to redo exhaust, fuel lines, and swap transfer cases.

 

[MaxPF]

I know you can take an an old Corp 14 bolt full floter, get the caliper bracket plate made or buy it then you use a 1990 Ford 2 wheel drive front rotor and bearings and calipers and you'll have disk breaks on an old bullet proof 14 bolt. I believe when I built my mud truck years ago my front and rear axles were 1979's Dana 60 with kingpins in the front. The break setup stoped my 38 Boggers on a dime.

The problem with putting disks on old 14 bolts is having a decent parking brake. The late 14 bolts have nice factory disk brakes with internal drum parking brakes. They are also often as cheap or cheaper than getting an old 14b and doing a disk brake conversion. Basically a win-win.

 

[USMC_TOP]

Your right max I never did hsve c a parking break after the conversion. I got the Corp 14 back then (late 80's) for a great price, free with 4.10s. My buddy bought the back plate for the conversion and his dad took it to GM where he worked in Lansing and built a few sets for the crew. The Detroit locker was the most expensive out of pocket for the whole setup. Some guys took grinders to the calipers on the front of the 60's to clear 15 inch rims. I never had the balls so I kept running my 16.5. I put that truck through hell and back and it never let me down with that drive train. Don't you guys think these axles are over kill for a h3? Sounds like 06h3 has a great setup for the rock crawling with the 44. Maybe if he was running 500+ hp he might have an issue..........

 

[MaxPF]

Don't you guys think these axles are over kill for a h3?

It depends. Assuming the truck actually wheels, D44's and 10b axles are at their limits with 37" tires. If you are going to stick to 35" or smaller tires then a 44 or 10b front and the stock rear is OK. At least until you break it. 37's are on the fence. 40" or bigger like Recon runs is definitely D60 and 14b territory. Having seen at least one H3 on 33's break a rear shaft, I think my estimates are pretty close.

 

[USMC_TOP]

Yeah I guess so if they re add really run em hard. That rock crawling must really be ruff on a drive train. I'm a Michigan boy so we don't see any of that type of wheelin. We have mud and sand. Drummond Island in the UP has some rock crawling. I've done it on my quad and seen some jeeps doing it but that's it. Hey Max, I have been seeing a few 2014 5.3's with 6l80e Trans 4x4 for like 7k with the pcm and harness. Think it would mate up with our tcase? Or would you need a 2914 case to go with it? Do the new drive trains put the shafts in the right position to go into a 3? I have been kicking around the idea a lot lately and I have a guy willing to give it a go. He thinks he can do it for 10k total including the engine and tranny. Or do you think he doesn't know what he could be getting into?

 

[USMC_TOP]

Oh abs also they say the 2014 5.3 ecotec has 11.1 compresson. Is that true?

 

[MaxPF]

Yeah I guess so if they re add really run em hard. That rock crawling must really be ruff on a drive train. I'm a Michigan boy so we don't see any of that type of wheelin. We have mud and sand. Drummond Island in the UP has some rock crawling. I've done it on my quad and seen some jeeps doing it but that's it.

Well, that's just a rough guide of course. A lot depends on what you wheel and how you wheel. The guy who broke his H3 rear axle shaft on 33's used skinny pedal in lieu of a locker. Alrock has wheeled way harder and never broke a shaft. He did wipe out his front diff though, but that doesn't really count; if you don't blow up at least one H3 front diff you ain't wheelin! :giggle:

Also, most axle shaft failures are fatigue related. Smaller shafts with a given tire diameter twist more with X amount of torque applied to the shaft, and so they fatigue faster. That's why rocks are harder on axles than mud or sand. You have to apply much more torque to the axles to climb over rock obstacles. The worst abuse is using skinny pedal, having the tire spin and then hook up. This is VERY hard on parts.

Hey Max, I have been seeing a few 2014 5.3's with 6l80e Trans 4x4 for like 7k with the pcm and harness. Think it would mate up with our tcase?

Nope. Different bolt pattern and different output spline count. With some research both could probably be solved though...

Or would you need a 2914 case to go with it? Do the new drive trains put the shafts in the right position to go into a 3? I have been kicking around the idea a lot lately and I have a guy willing to give it a go. He thinks he can do it for 10k total including the engine and tranny. Or do you think he doesn't know what he could be getting into?

No idea what a 2914 case is. 6L80 is longer than a 4L60 so the drive shafts would need to be altered. Finally, if the engine+trans is 7 grand there is no way he can do it for 10. It's an old saying when doing swaps to figure the cost of the swap and then double it. That gets you close to the true cost of a swap. If he thinks it will be 3 grand to do the swap (10k-7k for the engine) I guarantee 6 grand is probably closer. So 13 grand total, MINIMUM! If it comes in under that, be happy. If you get cost overruns, don't be surprised.

Oh abs also they say the 2014 5.3 ecotec has 11.1 compresson. Is that true?

Wouldn't surprise me. You can run the compression up in a direct injection engine.

 

[USMC_TOP]

Sorry that was my phone with its own mind. I meant a 2014 model tcase. I figured as much that it would cost more than that. I thought a 2014 engine with a 6 speed tranny with 1400 miles on it was a good price. Some places say they can build a harness for anything. So at minimum hardware that would need changing would be a tcase to go with the setup and new drive shafts made. How are they running 11.1 compresson in these new engines on pump gas? Is it the VVT and direct injection? They said it puts out 330hp with 350ft lbs of tq. I would think with our 4.56 gears that should a fun ride.......

 

[MaxPF]

Sorry that was my phone with its own mind. I meant a 2014 model tcase. I figured as much that it would cost more than that. I thought a 2014 engine with a 6 speed tranny with 1400 miles on it was a good price. Some places say they can build a harness for anything. So at minimum hardware that would need changing would be a tcase to go with the setup and new drive shafts made. How are they running 11.1 compresson in these new engines on pump gas? Is it the VVT and direct injection? They said it puts out 330hp with 350ft lbs of tq. I would think with our 4.56 gears that should a fun ride.......

It's the direct injection and the airflow in the combustion chamber. With direct injection they can squirt the fuel in late in the compression cycle and it's latent heat of vaporisation will keep it from igniting before the spark. The airflow in the chamber also impacts detonation resistance. My guess is that the only reason they didn't go even higher is because they would have had to introduce the fuel even later, and limited mixing time probably increases Hc and CO emissions. That's just a guess though. I'd love to have a couple hours to BS with the engineers who worked on this engine.

 

[USMC_TOP]

Thanks bud...........

 

[High Five H2]

thanks for the input, some interesting things to think about. now I want a kingpin axle, too. maybe machining hubs would be easier than using a different t case. i dunno.

 

[06 H3]

I have beat the snot out of my H3 throughout the years, I think the so cal crew can attest to that. The fact that my frame rails didnt wanna line up when installing the THORparts bumper probably also explains that. (I have now put the frame rails where they should be and welded a crossmember to the rails and behind the bumper to prevent it from moving)

In stock form the front end will eventually break with 35s under HARD use, so you can run with 33s then you wont be able to get to those hard trails without getting hung up all the time. I did not test it much but get a CI diff, maybe buy the best bearings you can cryo them. I kept it together for a good while but as I continued to push the truck the front end just doesnt wanna stay together, Its not the sudden abuse per say but just the continuation of abuse, the pinion bearing gives away then the teeth chip.

Again, its not like you will break every time out, I ran for 3 years under tough use before it broke.

On the SAS, I contemplated the 60 but for me I dont think its worth it just yet, its a Daily driver, I have a 5cyl and lugging around a heavy ass dana 60 and then what good is a dana 60 with a rear 10 bolt so then you need a 14 bolt. Those are heavy as **** too.

For the D60 and ABS you can possibly adapt CJ's deal, the hubs are a bit bigger so maybe you can bring down the OD on the hub and the ID on the ring and get it to fit.

I am running 37s and have no doubt I can keep the front end together. the rear 10 bolt scares me a bit. I would like to get an AAM 10.5 (newer 14 bolt) with the disk brakes and parking brake from an 01+ chevy 2500 adapt the ABS run some 8 lug to 6 lug adapters or vice versa for the front OR pull the hubs off plug weld the 8 lug hubs up send it to a machine shop redrill the 6 lug pattern, I have seen people do that.

Its all just thoughts right now.

Looking long term is it worth it to keep the H3 tcase? Well if you care about VSS and having a speedometer and all that I would say yes unless you can adapt another t case. Personally I havent had issues with my t cases, I do notice the problem with the H3 t case with most failures is that the fluid is all burnt and old. For some reason the H3 t case fluid gets ****ed up quickly, keep it clean. your good.

 

[High Five H2]

my plan is to swap in the engine, tranny, and T case from a H2. that means bigger engine, better and tougher tranny, and tougher T case. Then, it will be driver side drop and I my axle options open up. If I use all of those, plus the AAM 925 and H2 or whatever 14b axle is available, then the electronics will be very simple. Fabbing a tranny mount and re-routing the exhaust and maybe some wiring and fuel lines is the only problem. I don't know if I've posted up this idea before. I feel like I have. I've gotten some good input before over PM from 4speedfunk. he said to just do a body swap, but at that point I'll just buy an H2, so I don't know.

 

[06 H3]

Body swap isnt a bad idea the wheelbase is 122 for an H2 112 for an H3. You can make an H3 wheelbase 113-114 easily with a SAS, extend it out a tad more then you only have the shorten the H2 driveline a few inches.

I dont think electronics are simple unless you ditch everything and start from scratch with a new harness or transfer the H2 harness over. I think trans mount is easy, exhaust is easy fuel lines are easy that you can all make its the electronics that seem like hell but I am a moron when it comes to the electronics.

 

[High Five H2]

for what I have planned out, I don't think the electronics would be that hard. Axle - same sensor. TC - same solenoid. drivetrain - pretty sure it talks to the H3 BCM, no problem. doing a Gen IV SBC swap to a different type of gen IV SBC should be about the simplest modern engine swap ever. any could do the swap itself and get a shop to do a wiring harness if the harness isn't the same already.

 

[06 H3]

Our axles run the same sensor as an h2?

 

[High Five H2]

i think all GM vehicles use the same sensor.

 

[MaxPF]

thanks for the input, some interesting things to think about. now I want a kingpin axle, too. maybe machining hubs would be easier than using a different t case. i dunno.

Machining hubs for tone rings is way easier than messing with a t-case and exhaust.

 

[MaxPF]

I have beat the snot out of my H3 throughout the years, I think the so cal crew can attest to that. The fact that my frame rails didnt wanna line up when installing the THORparts bumper probably also explains that. (I have now put the frame rails where they should be and welded a crossmember to the rails and behind the bumper to prevent it from moving)

In stock form the front end will eventually break with 35s under HARD use, so you can run with 33s then you wont be able to get to those hard trails without getting hung up all the time. I did not test it much but get a CI diff, maybe buy the best bearings you can cryo them. I kept it together for a good while but as I continued to push the truck the front end just doesnt wanna stay together, Its not the sudden abuse per say but just the continuation of abuse, the pinion bearing gives away then the teeth chip.

Again, its not like you will break every time out, I ran for 3 years under tough use before it broke.

On the SAS, I contemplated the 60 but for me I dont think its worth it just yet, its a Daily driver, I have a 5cyl and lugging around a heavy ass dana 60 and then what good is a dana 60 with a rear 10 bolt so then you need a 14 bolt. Those are heavy as **** too.

The late disk brake 14b axles aren't really too bad. I can schlep one onto a floor jack and get it in place by myself. The old 14b axles with drums are indeed hefty.

For the D60 and ABS you can possibly adapt CJ's deal, the hubs are a bit bigger so maybe you can bring down the OD on the hub and the ID on the ring and get it to fit.

I am running 37s and have no doubt I can keep the front end together. the rear 10 bolt scares me a bit. I would like to get an AAM 10.5 (newer 14 bolt) with the disk brakes and parking brake from an 01+ chevy 2500 adapt the ABS run some 8 lug to 6 lug adapters or vice versa for the front OR pull the hubs off plug weld the 8 lug hubs up send it to a machine shop redrill the 6 lug pattern, I have seen people do that.

Drilling the 6 lug pattern isnt the problem. The problem is the hub size.

Its all just thoughts right now.

Looking long term is it worth it to keep the H3 tcase? Well if you care about VSS and having a speedometer and all that I would say yes unless you can adapt another t case. Personally I havent had issues with my t cases, I do notice the problem with the H3 t case with most failures is that the fluid is all burnt and old. For some reason the H3 t case fluid gets ****ed up quickly, keep it clean. your good.

It ain't just the H3 case. Seems like most newer chain drive cases cook their fluid. Even part time cases. 261/263's are notorious for this. On those POS cases t's a race whether the fluid cooks or the pump rubs a hole in the case. Interestingly I never had a problem with my old chain drive NP241, but I ran Redline MTL in it, which is better at high temps than non-ester-based synthetics. Not sure if the problem-freeness was due to the lube or due to the design of those older chain drive cases...