Bumpstops

[atvspeed4]

They twist but endlinks don't have enough deflection to allow it to

 

[backcountryislife]

They twist but endlinks don't have enough deflection to allow it to

I strongly disagree.


I played with mine a bunch before pulling the links, and you can put the wheel up on something and there is nothing stopping it except the swaybar not moving. If you disconnect, the swaybar will rotate on either end very easily, it's not stopping any movement aside from simply being connected.

My JK is the same way if I leave it connected...super stiff swaybar for good on road performance. The FJ... SLIGHTLY softer then these two, but still needs to be disconnected to see any notable flex.

 

[Hunner]

I will attempt a brief description again of part of what I did hopefully to help you guys messing with this to see my findings and use as you see fit. I only do so because it keeps coming up but from what I read my pictures and posts don't agree with what some of you are posting. I have always disclaimed to have it all figured out and that there are probably more ways to do some of this. So I am open to try to follow options that show that this does not work this way.
This thread seems to lean more towards upward travel but of course they affect each other.

If an H3 is hammering the metal stop with extended shocks they are either shot or you have cranked the torsions too high, or you are pushing too hard.
I added limit straps when I first did all my mods in case there was a problem hitting that stop. I later decided they were not necessary when I came down from 24 inches to 23 1/2 back in 06. I did see evidence of some light touching the metal stop after that after hard trails.

I have said when I got the Alpha with stiffer torsions I realized I did not need the limit straps.
On the ground you only have this much travel between the a-arm and metal bump stop even at 23 1/2.

(I have to believe if a non-Alpha ran the stiffer torsions and extended travel was added or not, it would prevent or reduce the tendency to hit the metal stop and provide more control on rough trails.)

Adding longer adjustable anti-sway bar links will also help the travel issue up and down rather than having to disconnect. I discovered that when I installed my BP tie rods.
I believe mine are about 6 1/2 inches. Someone will have to measure stock but I will look for those measurements.
H3 on the ground

I needed to raise it to clear the larger tie rods with extended travel at full compression or at full lock turn.

In this old shot I was actually balanced here and had my mechanic friend look in there and the a-arm was not touching in this real world situation.
So it is a combination of factors that determine how your front end is setup and reacts.

The stock links at full droop had the ends cocked up and maxed out with my added travel.
Without disconnecting them with an extended stock shock or longer shocks they would limit travel by this much.
They were holding up almost this much but connected the ends did reach part of this gap.

The stock length shock holds up this much at full droop.

I have seen the upper stock shock internal bump but have not YET dissected the lower half to see what is in there. Not sure that is safe?

Again if you want to see max travel up or down, disconnect everything and see what is required to re-connect without limiting travel. However be cautious as to what you use to prevent hitting the metal stop and how much abuse it can take. (ie, stock tie rods)

Then again there is nothing to prevent the vehicle from rising when the upward travel runs out. Gravity can be overcome! lol
I hope I did not add to the confusion.:shifty:
Let me know the errors so I can learn as well.

 

[backcountryislife]

In this old shot I was actually balanced here and had my mechanic friend look in there and the a-arm was not touching in this real world situation.
So it is a combination of factors that determine how your front end is setup and reacts.

In this shot if you were disconnected though, your tire that's in contact would be shoved up more, and the tire that's hanging would be against the metal stop. The stiffness of the sway bar is the only reason that it's not.

Btw, thinking more about the bumpstops in a crawling situation, if you've got adjustable compression damping, you can have a bump set very slow, where it will react like stock on the street in an emergency situation, but in a crawling situation it would do what I want it to, by allowing the uptravel.

Btw in one of the two threads it was mentioned that uptravel was a minimal issue... I disagree. Up on one side & down on the other work together to keep both wheels on the ground, keep all the force from going through one axle, keep the other wheel from spinning, keep shock loads away when you get back to the ground with the wheel you couldn't keep in contact with the ground.

They're a system that needs both. If one wheel stays all the way down when you go up on a feature, then the fact that the other one can droop is a non issue, it won't hit the ground anyhow.


Even a simple situation like this, without uptravel, the truck would be sitting higher, and would be MUCH more tippy

 

[06 H3]

Btw, thinking more about the bumpstops in a crawling situation, if you've got adjustable compression damping, you can have a bump set very slow, where it will react like stock on the street in an emergency situation, but in a crawling situation it would do what I want it to, by allowing the uptravel.

I've mentioned that!!! Lol but that's my thought. Now I gotta do that...

 

[amrg]

If an H3 is hammering the metal stop with extended shocks they are either shot or you have cranked the torsions too high, or you are pushing too hard.
I added limit straps when I first did all my mods in case there was a problem hitting that stop. I later decided they were not necessary when I came down from 24 inches to 23 1/2 back in 06. I did see evidence of some light touching the metal stop after that after hard trails.

I cranked my truck to 23.25, which isnt much in comparison to others, and the shocks were brand new. I cant say Im an expert in shocks, my only mechanical experience I got was from reading through those forums (which btw is great to have ppl help ppl like me understand things) but the shocks dampen fine and there isnt anything leaking. I did make sure while everythin was installed to see if there was still room for the tie rods to drop more and not put extreme angles, everything looked fine.

Back to the main discussion, will the longer end links help achieve that extra uptravel we are looking for? Disconnecting sway bars is fine for rock crawling, on the high speed a simple turn could end up in a rollover!!!

 

[Hunner]

In this shot if you were disconnected though, your tire that's in contact would be shoved up more, and the tire that's hanging would be against the metal stop. The stiffness of the sway bar is the only reason that it's not.

Ok I'm trying to see it the way you are.
I don't think disconnected would shove up more, I cannot explain it well but at steep full up angles things will only go so far before the bar reacts from the other side or in this case maybe other components.
Here is what I think, my tire on the ground with extended sway bar links has probably allowed all the up travel there is from the cv's and my tie rods that allow up to 30 degrees. The longer link pushes the sway bar at that end up higher but having no resistance on the tire in the air at the other end the sway bar can only press down as far as the components on the other end will allow, which in my case is short of the metal stop, in most cases. I have painted the under side of the a-arm several times so I can check if it hits. I only rarely see where it had touched but not hammered it enough to bend an a-arm.
Does that make sense?

 

[Hunner]

Back to the main discussion, will the longer end links help achieve that extra uptravel we are looking for? Disconnecting sway bars is fine for rock crawling, on the high speed a simple turn could end up in a rollover!!!

There is a sure fire way to find out! I think your right, high speed on the sand as you mention you do I would not want to disconnect.
Those I used were Curries. I got them from a offroad shop that had ordered them for a buggy they were building. They were called designers or fabricators model, not cut for any specific application. They were long enough I could cut off some threads at each end of the shaft but still leave me some adjustment above and below the 6 1/2 I found to be about right.
I can try to find out the part number if they remember or there may be a pre cut length model around that length.

 

[backcountryislife]

In this shot if you were disconnected though, your tire that's in contact would be shoved up more, and the tire that's hanging would be against the metal stop. The stiffness of the sway bar is the only reason that it's not.

Ok I'm trying to see it the way you are.
I don't think disconnected would shove up more, I cannot explain it well but at steep full up angles things will only go so far before the bar reacts from the other side or in this case maybe other components.
Here is what I think, my tire on the ground with extended sway bar links has probably allowed all the up travel there is from the cv's and my tie rods that allow up to 30 degrees. The longer link pushes the sway bar at that end up higher but having no resistance on the tire in the air at the other end the sway bar can only press down as far as the components on the other end will allow, which in my case is short of the metal stop, in most cases.

I disagree on the UP. On a steep uphill there's admittedly not as much weight n the front, so I couldn't expect being disconnected to change much there, but for me, the same feature being connected to being disconnected the difference was just under 4". Also, if you're cranked and running bigger bumpstops like most are, there's no way you can get full uptravel, as THAT will limit the travel as well.

Using longer swaybar links flattens the arms some, increasing leverage... but not enough that it actually articulates from side to side noticeably... I've seen pic after pic of H3's, and I've never seen one anywhere NEAR full flex with the swaybar connected. I'm really surprised that you even suggest that, as you know how stiff this swaybar is. Just looking at the LCA angle in your pic, you can tell the opposite side is keeping it from drooping hardly at all.

Same situation with the JK, a buddy of mine had his E disco act up on him, he has proper length swaybar links... and the thing wheels like an H3 without disconnecting. Almost ZERO front flex. As soon as I looked at a pic I could tell his wasn't working properly.

Show me a single pic of any H3 connected that looks like this, and this is where I was only disconnected on one side, and the swaybar bottomed out on the nut on the other side, so it limited travel a bit still (going to the other side was noticeably better)

Look at the obvious difference in LCA angle here:

I only point this out to dispel the myth that the 3 articulates any more than 2" or so without disconnecting, and that with a good bumpstop system you could have a disconnected system WITH flex, that also has some more risk mitigation from the issues involved in disconnecting, and also have a more street friendly vehicle than I did.

 

[Hunner]

Do you think running it like that could cause steering racks to break more often as the tie rods steeper angles would be leveraging more on the rack ends??
I tried to be conservative in all my changes and still be reasonably reliable by changing components to handle the changes in forces. Works for me, so far.

 

[backcountryislife]

In comparison, here's a shot with about the most articulation I've seen connected.

Chris has a shot of a gut on a forklift testing fles on the 3... and you can see it clearly has even more than what my pic is showing.

Btw, you don't disconnect for driving on the road... if being disconnected is going to end you in a rollover you're doing a very different version of offroading than anyone I've wheeled with here or in Moab. I'm not talking about this for desert racing, obviously for that kind of thing what I'm talking about would be the wrong direction all together.

 

[backcountryislife]

Do you think running it like that could cause steering racks to break more often as the tie rods steeper angles would be leveraging more on the rack ends??
I tried to be conservative in all my changes and still be reasonably reliable by changing components to handle the changes in forces. Works for me, so far.

I broke two before disconnecting, and one after. the failures after that were install related or crossmember related, as the bot moved rather than them breaking... wasn't much more fun, but wasn't a "true failure" in the way we usually speak of.


But that said, absolutely! I think it will stress them more for sure.... even the one I did break after though was on flat ground... wasn't articulated at all, I hit a rock on the side of the tire rolling back a bit, it yanked the wheel out of my hands (caught me by surprise) & snapped the rack.

With that badazz new clamp of yours though, or the other monster aluminum one I saw being made, I don't think it's a big issue, BUT, I do think that center mounting to avoid upward deflection of the rack is needed if you have significant flex, or a strong angle at the TRE.

I was also cranked higher than most recommend as well. When I got it someone gave me the number of 24.25 being the safe max, so that's what I did.

I think there are ways to take what I was doing and do it MUCH better (inconceivable :giggle but I do believe that what I was going for, and what I had achieved were worth the work though.

There is a reason that jeep guys work so hard on flex... keep the wheels on the ground & you'll run safer, smoother (and mine was SOOOO smooth disconnected) and with less breakage.

 

[amrg]

Yes I would definitely not run my truck disconnected, as Im aware there would be that huge risk of a rollover. In this region, no rocks, nothing, just plain desert or sand, hence its fast desert driving. We do 75 mph on the flats, 30 on the dunes. All that aired down to 13 psi to reduce the bumps. But to hit the sand sometimes there are those bumps that u need all the travel u can get to soak up, even when aired down this low.

Look at the obvious difference in LCA angle here:

It seems here there is abit more up. Assuming there were different bump stops, can this be achieved without disconnecting? Some sort of mod to the sway bars?

As to the steering rack mod, I too have the Hunner sleeve, works great as it reduced that clunk I used to feel, even before being leveled on that stock rubber sleeve. The truck actually measured 21.5 inches to bottom of the fender, so my truck was way low to start with. The monster new aluminum clamp being made looks very promising. Im hoping for something to fix this issue once and for all, and honestly I don't have the skills to weld another bracket in the middle.

 

[backcountryislife]

ah he!!, I don't either... I just try to help the guys who know WTF they're doing come up with solutions!!


As to the swaybar, the answer would be a softer swaybar (like the Currie) or a 2 stage (like the teraflex) The teeraflex has a small swaybar in the middle of a bigger one, the smaller one is like a currie, in that it allows full flex but stabilizes you, then you lock in the outer one & it does what a normal road swaybar does like the 3 & JK do now.

Honestly, for what you do I don't know that what we have now isn't the best option for you... you want to avoid roll, whereas we want to gain it in the form of conforming to an obstacle.


Maybe one that's SLIGHTLY softer that allows some individual travel would help? I wonder what the guys who race Baja style races run for a swaybar in these, I can't see wanting something too much softer.